"Sock Puppet Accounts Locked" Topic

…business ethics.

How's this for business ethics. The defendant is found guilty by:

1) Computer forensics that are not explained nor are the findings released (at least not beyond: "Because I said so!")

2) Vague accusations by unnamed sources. How many times have we heard newscasters intone: "Unnamed sources close to the investigation say…"

3) Piling on by his competitors with: "It's been an open secret for years in the industry…". Rumors that, if you tried to track them down, would result in "I heard from a friend who heard it from a friend." with no firm original source.

4) When the accusations are released the defendant refuses to explain himself. Oh, wait…

Then the editor conducts a drive-by smear by citing "…a Frothers committee member…" (a site he says is full of liars and haters) "…identifying Khurasan as being behind the "Da Bish" account over there, which he says was used to start flame wars." And when called on this hypocrisy he says: "I didn't say you had to believe him…"

To be clear: I have bought from Khurasan in the past and will do so again in the future. NONE of my purchases were EVER made as a result of what ANYONE said about them. I bought them because I liked what I saw. And after the initial purchases I continued because he puts out an outstanding product at a reasonable price.

Hi Folks, I'm a long time reader and try to stay out of the drama, but reading this has made me want to post. I have no ties to Khurasan or know Heinz Good Aryan, but do know (as many suspect) the accounts aren't connected. I'm not sure if it's a deliberate (or convenient) misrepresentation of Khurasan's business and Heinz Good Aryan, but there are other more likely reasons why these accounts would be locked, so I'd look more closely before solidifying an opinion, one way or the other, or going on a witch hunt for any parties involved.

Dang!

So, with the same argument as above, how do you definitively know they are not connected?

err Geoff – all that "innocent until proven guilty" stuff should have some bearing here – not "when did you stop beating your wife?"

This is absurd. Apparently the court of public opinion and hearsay trumps all else. Sad.

I didn't realize TMP needed a court. I was under the impression that Bill has the authority to boot anybody who violates the TOS here.

Bill did what he did. It's the anonymity of those from "the industry" that gives this a real stink to me.

The issue here though is that the accusation made against "the defendant" has the scope to affect his business but is (a) currently unsubstantiated and (b) openly didputed by some. I wouldn't be surprised if in some parts if the world that would be an open door for a compensation claim.

I didn't realize TMP needed a court. I was under the impression that Bill has the authority to boot anybody who violates the TOS here.

True. Ultimately, this is a Billocracy and what he says, goes. Although I'm saddened by what's happened here with KM, I still appreciate a lot of the moderation that Bill has done and a lot of the other instances where he has sent bad actors on their way.

Never had any dealings with the man but his company produces some gorgeous figures! Before I form any opinions I would much rather hear from him rather than trusting rumors, unspecified evidence and the word of his competitors. If he could prove otherwise would this be slander?

If I did 15 mm scifi, I would certainly consider those minis. Their quality speaks for itself and certainly needs no shenanigans.
But I don't.

However I have always thought that the moniker " Heinz Good Aryan" was in dubious taste to say the least.

However I have always thought that the moniker " Heinz Good Aryan" was in dubious taste to say the least.

Yup. And if HGA was his steam-venting alt, then that really says something about him.

This whole sorry mess says a shed load about "the industry" as well.

Edit: Look industry guys, my issue is this. If you've got grievances with someone you compete with, and you think your being stiffed, then resolve it privately. Especially for something at the sock puppet level. If it was Tony Reidy level insanity different story.

I am sorry to report that Khurasan Miniatures has been linked to a second "sock puppet" account.

The "Porfirio Rubirosa" account was locked some time ago for harassing Tango. Other readernames on the same account include the evil morlab, Tango 01, John the ORM, Chief Lacky Rich – the last three being imitations of some of our more prominent members. The name of the account was changed by a moderator to "(I make fun of others)"

The IP on that account traces to Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation.

The return mailing address for Khurasan Miniatures…

…leads to a person…

link

…who is with the Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation law office. link

Here is one example (of many) in which the account was used deceptively: link

FYI, the real-life Porfirio Rubirosa "…was a Dominican diplomat, race-car driver, and polo player. He was an adherent of the dictator Rafael Trujillo, and was also rumored to be a political assassin under his regime. Rubirosa made his mark as an international playboy, for his jet setting lifestyle, and his legendary sexual prowess with women. Among his spouses were two of the richest women in the world."

link

oh dear!

Sheesh.. I hope that was not him. Why?

Because Porfirio Rubirosa- had these delightful things to say about my stuff/company:

Absolute rubbish

and

Those look very, very similar to the Khurusan Federal army models

++As note here, My Earth force was released First

And who could forget

(Paint Jobs)Yes, not bad at all. The models themselves leave something to be desired though.

You can confirm this with a quick Google search. I really hope this is not him, because that 'ain't right…

RebelMike
Rebelminis.com

So, really sounding like a vent sockpuppet.

I better get my order in before your witchhunt causes him to close up shop…

So Khurasan is connected to the notorious Larry Dunn…?

TMP link

Names on this account: LarryDunn, DeadAustrians, 1 72nd Dead Austrians, Roman Bowman, Moxie Cowznofski, TVs Frank, camelspider

Traces to the same law office. Log shows definitive evidence that LarryDunn and Porfirio Rubirosa accounts were used by the same individual.

Discussions about Larry Dunn:

TMP link

TMP link

TMP link

TMP link

Larry looking for casting info in 2007: TMP link

Yes, like Rebel Minis, I hope Porfirio Rubirosa is not Khurasan as these are some links where PR had derogatory comments on my new releases.

TMP link

TMP link

TMP link

TMP link

David
splinteredlightminis.com

Regardless of who was behind that account, they certainly seemed to have very few pleasant things to say.

Yes, I used to dread posting new stuff just because of the garbage PR would post. It really deflated excitement over what I was releasing.

David
splinteredlightminis.com

Well, that sucks :(
There's constructive criticism and then there's just being contrary and negative for the sake of doing so.

Creating something takes a bit of nerve because to some extent, you're putting yourself out there.

I still get nervous when I get an email that someone posted a review of something I made :)

Long time listener (2002), first time caller (not quite, but close). I have always considered myself a fan of miniatures but fundamentally – I am a customer. I come here looking for ideas and product to possibly add to my insurmountable mountain of lead that will likely remain unpainted until my death.

All this inside baseball stuff seems a little…well, childish and gossipy to me with all the angst of a teen movie….one a teenage girl would favor.

Bill can do what he wants. It's his page (if that's the right terminology), he can set the rules…and he can be the judge. Frankly, it's never easy being the guy in charge. You have to make decisions which sometimes suck. Quite often you are wrong but decisions still have to be made. He doesn't owe me one d@mn explanation. I don't think he owes any of the rest of you an explanation either. That said, I don't know him from squat and he could be the biggest a-hole in the world. I just don't care. I like TMP.

That said, I could care less if Khurusan is guilty or not of any of these things. I have been buying minis from GZG since the early 90s-probably one of the first from the States. Met the great Mr. Tuffley twice while he was in the States and had dinner with him at GenCon some years ago (thanks KR). Totally, totally love GZG. Still, Khurusan is cranking out probably the best looking 15mm product I have ever seen. I personally don't care if he IS a sock puppet, HAS a sock puppet or needs new shoes. It is meaningless to me as someone who just loves miniatures and could care less about internet drama….as a father and businessman I have all the drama I need in the actual skin and flesh world. Khurusan makes great miniatures…arguably the best (though GZG will always be the first in my heart). That is all I care about.

I am going to buy from Khurasan because he makes good stuff…..period.

I am going to still visit TMP and LAF daily…as I have for years. Along with Dropship Horizon and other pages they are part of my daily regimen…which is not going to change.

Sorry if I upset some.

David,

I like your stuff. When my severely cramped living area (i.e. rented room) is expanded into a more natural abode, I shall be buying from you.

Same goes for Rebel Minis, whom I was able to buy from before the great-no-room-for-you event in my recent past.

As far as KM and possible sock-puppetry goes, I would wish it were not so, but from what Bill has posted, appearances are not kind to my wishes.

I wonder if those who posted with various levels of angst directed at Bill will post again, with less vehemence. <shrug>

Of course, if KM has a teenaged son who is trying to "do dad a favor" on the sly, then that is one thing. Again, though, the affair is a sad one, regardless.

See Bill, all you had to do was release this kind of information from the start!

But for some reason in all these controversies you make half disclosures and then prevaricate when people find that unsatisfactory until eventually you tell the full story.

And unfortunately I am now inclined to believe these allegations as I obtained independent verification about the link between Khurasan Miniatures and Larry Dunn (aka camelspider). An individual who first rose to fame on TMP by having a Wikipedia fight with TooFatLardies in 2007.

This has nothing to do with Bill, this talks to "the industry" who think setting the TMP attack dogs on a competitor is a good idea.

And the anonymity is oh so very telling. Hope some of our silent friends have the guts to identify themselves instead of forcing Bill to wear this all.

Other TMP member accounts which all link back to Heinz Good Aryan's account and to the Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation law office:

klingon cruiser, collingsworth, Marko Manni, gladerunner, silvan elf, manglax, 151 regiment, Pak4341, catoninetails, arnhembattle, Franklin Delano Bluesevelt, Mark williams, Tom Cirol, jeanmarie L, algore, kraken guy, ratcatcher, DPaulson, Branden O, fog alert, carl astro, 155millimeter, george lindsay, gorgon zola, joel hodges, fletcher atheist, gondwana, fish hunter, frank fielding, joikee, lisaplanton, chrisabramides, PeterLemonjello, fremantle gamer, crazydiamond460, goblinking57, gulfofalaska42, mcollingsworth3, chickamauga63, zhukov100, stalingrad42, millions of them, julia foley, thomas hanley

Yes, that's 44 accounts!

The odd thing is that the accounts were created but never provided with an email address, so they have never been used to post on the forums.

This does, however, tie the Heinz Good Aryan account to the law office IP.

See Bill, all you had to do was release this kind of information from the start!

I did, I already told you the earlier information was 100%.

But for some reason in all these controversies you make half disclosures…

Not true…

…and then prevaricate when people find that unsatisfactory until eventually you tell the full story.

I was provided with more evidence, that's all. I don't prevaricate.

The odd thing is that the accounts were created but never provided with an email address, so they have never been used to post on the forums.

…until there was a need for sacrificing one in a controversial thread.

AngelBarracks has identified himself as knowing about it. I don't know who is responsible for digging the evidence or doing the tip-off. I think it would be better if they identified themselves and presented their evidence but they may have reason not to (such as preparing to sue KM).

And I think Bill is just enforcing his rules, not acting for "the industry" (though I certainly criticize the way he announced this).

I did, I already told you the earlier information was 100%.

You just said you had evidence that KM and HGA were created on the same computer. You didn't specify exactly what evidence this was. Unlike your later posting where you specified you tracked the IP addresses back to a company associated with KM.

I was provided with more evidence, that's all.

Yes, I know. But you presented it in a very different manner than you did the original announcement. Specifics and screenshots are far more compelling than "we have evidence".

I love these threads sometimes as it gives a chance to those members who have posted a small amount or none at all to actually be able to post something . BTW.How many manufacturers have left or had their accounts locked? And what effect has it had on TMP overall?

Specifics and screenshots are far more compelling than "we have evidence".

And I told you, I do not always choose to share my methods.

And I told you, I do not always choose to share my methods.

And as I told, that is a very unconvincing method of getting people to believe a well known mini producer was doing something as bad as smearing his competitors with sock puppets.

How many manufacturers have left or had their accounts locked?

There are 594 former advertisers. That sounds like a lot, but the vast majority of those are simply companies that are no longer in business.

And what effect has it had on TMP overall?

There will always be companies leaving, just as there are new companies coming in.

And as I told, that is a very unconvincing method of getting people to believe a well known mini producer was doing something as bad as smearing his competitors with sock puppets.

That's your problem, not mine. I just report the facts.

Thank Ya Bill . So no real effect then.

All that the forum admin has to do is look at the user profiles and he can see what IP address they are using so it's not hard to spot multiple accounts all tied to one IP address.

I can understand having a second account not tied to a business for personal commenting. But using that identity (let alone 44 of them) to troll and insult other businesses is a pretty sleezeball move. I'm glad Bill gave him the boot.

All that the forum admin has to do is look at the user profiles and he can see what IP address they are using so it's not hard to spot multiple accounts all tied to one IP address.

IP addresses can be shared either through NAT or dynamic IP allocation. If a bunch of accounts are all regularly on the same IP, and behaving similarly, it is probably someone sock puppeting. But merely having the same IP at account creation isn't a solid link.

I suppose I thought all internet trolls used Tor and proxies.

Maybe a couple might share an IP location like at a college dorm, but it's really unlikely for more than a couple. Shared posting style, negative attitude, and *dozens* of accounts with the same IP location is pretty damning.

@Quaker

I don't see Bill's actions the same way you do, so which of us is wrong?

I did not see his posting as an attempt to convince us to believe him that KM was sockpuppeting, but rather an announcement that there was sockpuppeting and who the culprit was.

Setting aside that fact that this is Bill's world and thus his rules, he has long been opposed to sockpuppting by vendors, with much support from those of us here.

In this instance, he could have simply locked all of the accounts involved and not posted a thing. I'll bet he would have caught a lot of flak for that too, once his actions became general knowledge. Likely more people would have picked up their marbles, never to return.

I expect that even had Bill posted all of those links up front, STILL would be those who would get bent out of shape about it, complain, and also some leave forever.

Notice, he did declare KM the devil incarnate and that we'd all be banned if we bought his miniatures again, merely that that guy had been found to be doing something that was way out of line and long known to be unacceptable here. Given that this person is apparently one who has caused significant ruckus before, it is highly unlikely that the defense through ignorance is valid.

I don't agree with everythng Bill does here (some of the open letters do grate), but I am glad he is looking out for fairness and honesty on our behalf.

The "Porfirio Rubirosa" account was locked some time ago for harassing Tango. Other readernames on the same account include the evil morlab, Tango 01, John the ORM, Chief Lacky Rich – the last three being imitations of some of our more prominent members.

Just so everyone is clear, I am not Khurasan Miniatures (who I am no fan of personally and haven't dealt with in years) nor am I Porfirio Rubioso or any other one of the ever-mounting number of so-called "sock puppets" Bill is inventing. While I have permitted several people (at one point there were five of us, IIRC) to use this account in the past they've always done so from a single shared computer, which is currently located less than twenty miles from Bill's house.

When my supporting membership ran out some months ago, I changed my account name to No Longer Active On TMP and ceased posting altogether. I had hoped that would remain an accurate description of my status, but on being informed that Bill was committing libel against me I found it advisable to switch back to the old ID temporarily and post this.

To be perfectly clear, Bill made no attempt to contact me before making the libelous post I've quoted from above. Where he got the idea that the account was operated by Khurasan I neither know nor care, but it certainly wasn't some magical display computer detective skill. I will not be communicating with him until I've spoken to my lawyer about whether his behavior is actionable. If so, I will make him pay dearly for conflating me with Porfirio Rubioso, an individual I found to be entirely repellent in every way.

I did not see his posting as an attempt to convince us to believe him that KM was sockpuppeting, but rather an announcement that there was sockpuppeting and who the culprit was.

What's the difference?

I don't agree with everythng Bill does here (some of the open letters do grate), but I am glad he is looking out for fairness and honesty on our behalf.

I have no problem with him locking accounts for sock puppeting. I just expressed disbelief that KM would have engaged in such behavior, and wanted to know that Bill had solid evidence and wasn't just banning him for something as flimsy as two accounts sharing the same IP when created.

Bill doesn't have to satisfy me, but allowing these sorts of controversies by holding back information can hurt his business.

>

The "Porfirio Rubirosa" account was locked some time ago for harassing Tango. Other readernames on the same account include the evil morlab, Tango 01, John the ORM, Chief Lacky Rich – the last three being imitations of some of our more prominent members.

Just so everyone is clear, I am not Khurasan Miniatures (who I am no fan of personally and haven't dealt with in years) nor am I Porfirio Rubioso or any other one of the ever-mounting number of so-called "sock puppets" Bill is inventing. While I have permitted several people (at one point there were five of us, IIRC) to use this account in the past they've always done so from a single shared computer, which is currently located less than twenty miles from Bill's house.

When my supporting membership ran out some months ago, I changed my account name to No Longer Active On TMP and ceased posting altogether. I had hoped that would remain an accurate description of my status, but on being informed that Bill was committing libel against me I found it advisable to switch back to the old ID temporarily and post this.

To be perfectly clear, Bill made no attempt to contact me before making the libelous post I've quoted from above. Where he got the idea that the account was operated by Khurasan I neither know nor care, but it certainly wasn't some magical display computer detective skill. I will not be communicating with him until I've spoken to my lawyer about whether his behavior is actionable. If so, I will make him pay dearly for conflating me with Porfirio Rubioso, an individual I found to be entirely repellent in every way.

Check the spelling closer… PR had changed his name to conflate it with yours. Bill wasn't accusing you of posting, just that PR had changed his name to (almost) match yours, just like John the OFM for example.

I will not be communicating with him until I've spoken to my lawyer about whether his behavior is actionable.

He will probably recommend calling the cyberpolice. The consequences will never be the same!

But seriously, look at MrHarold's post. The guy had a Tango 01 (not the real Tango01) account. I wonder if there is a Rebelyell 2006 floating around.

@Quaker

"What's the difference?"

Informative vs Persuasive. There IS a difference.

As for your intent, I would only auggest that looking at iyour words from a different lens than your own, that you were adding to the controversy/drama
and your desire to help Bill avoid such is far less clear than you likely believe it to be.

I am not attacking your intent, merely amused at your method.