"Sock Puppet Accounts Locked" Topic

Not easy being a sheriff Bill but you do a good job. So thank you for the good work.Plaese keep it up.

martin goddard

Khurasan at least sounded like they tried to give an explanation…

HAG, you never know…

This train wreck seems non-ending….

Just so everyone knows, Ottoathome is NOT a sock puppet of OSchmidt. Otto at home exists beause I can't get on through OSchmidt at home, the reason for that is OSchmidt is me at work and apparently the sophistication of the computer at work is not handleable by my poor old wheezy computer at home.

Just sad. Why in the world would he need a sock puppet account. Do you have a vendetta again him?

Do you have a vendetta again him?

This is not from Bill. In fact KM has been an active forum poster and I believe advertiser (?) so if anything it is potentiall financially damaging to Bill and TMP to remove him.

As far as I can ascertain, the evidence has come from multiple independent sources.

Why in the world would he need a sock puppet account.

HGA was very vocal in Tango threads and I believe one of the Holocaust Denial threads. If he was KM, then maybe KM needed a way to vent without damaging his company's image.

Without seeing concrete evidence from Bill I have a hard time believing him. Will my account be locked now for disagreeing?

needed a way to vent without damaging his company's image

Must admit, there have been times I have not posted responses as my personal opinion may be stronger than my official opinion, but i didn't want to tarnish the company name with my [over?] reaction.

However I only have this one account (mainly as I have a crap memory for passwords and cant be bothered to keep logging in and out).

Without seeing concrete evidence from Bill I have a hard time believing him.

I'm not sure that there is any particular requirement for Bill to publish any evidence publicly. Presumably you can choose to believe him, or not. However he evidentally feels he has sufficient evidence (or perhaps insufficient proof to the contrary) to lock the account permanently. I am guessing that is not a decision taken lightly, in the light of how active a poster of new wargames items KM was.

Will my account be locked now for disagreeing?

That's just being silly.

I don't buy it. As others have pointed out, those "sock puppet attacks on business rivals" are pretty lame in comparison to what you would expect if that were the case.

I'm not making any accusations here, but the recent activity of the HGA account in threads on the subject of trolling/spammers makes the timing of this action…interesting.

Ah well. I'll make it a point to place an order with Khurasan in the near future.

Martin

TMP link

Take a look at this one. HGA asks a question about the figure base, KM doesn't answer. If it is a sock puppet, its the worst one ever! Even if it is, so what? If someone says someone else's figures are good or bad, its me who makes the final choice with my wallet. In fact, if someone alerts me to another range that I might be interested in, whatever their standard, it makes me check that range and maybe purchase.
My advice to business rivals, don't stir the pot, make better figures than him, have them painted better than he does, then photograph them and put them on your site, just like he does.
For full disclosure, I haven't bought 15mm sci fi since Lazerburn was in full flow in the early 90's, and they went several house moves ago. I have never bought from KM or any other 15mm sci fi manufacturer. This whole thing is just silly.

And on Frothers, in the thread started by Da_Bish referred to above , Angelbarracks, of all people, comes to Dear Editor in Chief's defense in this matter.

Strange world we live in.
Apparently the 15mm scifi board is not as collegial as thought. It may even turn into, >gasp< Napoleonic Discussion!

15mm robots in shakos?

15mm robots in shakos?

Just my opinion…I don't feel that Khurasan miniatures would need to make inflammatory remarks about other companies. His product speaks for itself. Why risk his reputation on some BS. Maybe time to get fitted for a new foil hat…

The real "Stepman3"…but then again I've never been anyone else…

I find it interesting that HGA has 5 good trader scores. Who traded with him? "Himself"?

BTW is someone launching a Denial of Service attack on Frothers?

Unless Bill was very confident in his findings it makes little sense to ban someone who has an active release schedule, provides content to the site, and is a possibly a paid advertiser.

Bill is under no obligation to provide any details on how he figured this out. If all these methods can be Googled, then even less reason to do so since the information would be readily available.

I don't have a dog in this fight as the end result has virtually no impact on my life. Apparently for some this is a life changing event. I'm glad people are passionate over their wargaming but it needs to be held in perspective to the big picture.

I already know all possible methods. Either you logged the IP the account was created on, logged the email associated with the account, logged already existing TMP cookies, or logged browser fingerprints.

Speaking as a former computer forensicicist and a former cyber red teamer, that's not even vaguely close to all possible methods.

Mister Tibbles – I've only done like 3 trades on this site but I somehow got 9 good trader scores that I have no idea how I got.

Im guessing some people use them as a general "kudos".

Thatīs right Weasel, some use them as kind of an anti-stifle.

So what is a Sock puppet and why is it bad?? Are they stealing or committing some form of fraud? I really don't get it.

A sock puppet is a member account that someone sets up in order to post things they wouldn't otherwise want associated with their "normal" account. It's frowned upon here on TMP because it generally has been seen to enable bad behavior if the person doesn't make it known that they are also a TMP member under another name.

A sock puppet is when you have multiple accounts.

The allegation is that Khurasan used a sock puppet account to talk up his own product and talk down competitors.

It's also often an illegal business practice:

link

Sock Puppeting and having multiple accounts is not the same thing. I retain my personal account under my actual name and have this business account. I identify myself in my posts however and never attempt to disguise the relationship between them.

-Eli

Good grief it just goes on and on and gets worse by the day, the paranoia on here is amazing. Unreal how so much bile and hatred can be garnered from a hobby that consists of grown men pushing toy soldiers about a table. It fair boggle the mind!

Couldn't an investigation and conclusion have been arrived at between the involved parties in private?

Couldn't an investigation and conclusion have been arrived at between the involved parties in private?

This form of sock puppeting is an act against the TMP community, so we have a tradition of announcing when we catch someone at it.

Couldn't an investigation and conclusion have been arrived at between the involved parties in private?

That would be a "duel".

This is more in line with "bread and circuses".

…so we have a tradition of announcing when we catch someone at it.

Evidently "we" also have a tradition of passing sentence without providing proof or allowing the Defendant to speak on his own behalf.

Without seeing concrete evidence from Bill I have a hard time believing him. Will my account be locked now for disagreeing?

No, but I'll lock your account because you are David Hesse, and you've been banned previously from TMP…

It has been suspected by a lot of people for the last 2 years that Khurasan was using sock puppet accounts to, at the very least, boost postings about his figures to the top of the forum listings above any new postings from rival companies.

It appears that these rumours were true…

It matters, as someone asked, because you should know if someone has a vested interest in a product or company when they comment on it. This is why I use my company name on all forum accounts so people can judge my comments knowing I am a manufacturer.

And, as Geoff said, I refrain from commenting a lot on TMP….

Mike

I have some figures from Khurasan and I admit they are great. I eagerly admit that Jon has great service and excellent figures.

I also admit that Jon of KM sometimes was kinda unexpectedly expansive at the threads of other producers of stuff simillar to KM.

But these accusations just do not stick together.

We know that Jon of KM hates when someone is asking about overdue figures (and pointinig him that some figures were so long overdue – and we all know that he is long overdue with so many cool figures).

This Heinz Good Arian guy was regularly asking Jon about overdue figures, and Jon did not answer his question:

TMP link
TMP link

Some of his question are uncomfortable for Jon:
TMP link

are the guns intercahngable?

Heinz aryan, you could rig something so that the guns are swappable. Probably best to use rare earth magnets

Sometimes his words are damaging Jon sales:
TMP link

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On the other hand we have such threads:
TMP link
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Overall, after checking more then 50 pages, I have mixed feelings, and I would really like to see some third party confirming accusation.

Maybe some popular members TMP could be informed by Bill about proofs, and he/they could confirm those accusations?

The primary reason for having QRF in my moniker is that people can judge any miniature related comments I make with that factor in mind.

Generally, however, I am a modeller and a gamer, and will give praise to what I see is a good model, but it does make it harder for me to criticise where I see a poor model, as it is assumed I am doing so from my position as a (potentially rival) manufacturer, rather than as a wargames. I accept that bias, rather than make a second 'personal' account.

If I was to make another account, with a non associated name (say, hobbygamer – Apologies if there is someone called hobbygamer out there!) and then either post on my own threads saying what a great model that is, or how QRF products are better than XYZ, or to pick on XYZ and just say they were not great (with or without promoting my 'own' stuff, or even just to simply post occasional innocent random comments to my own threads to keep them at the top of my the board, especially to the detriment of posts from other manufacturers, well that is a sock puppet.

I remember the first big Sock Puppet outing, Black Tree Design. I was very glad Bill did it then, and happy that he remains vigilant.

I hope noone argue that sockpuppeting is really bad and unfair marketing idea.

Point is, we just ask for something like this:
TMP link

IF Jon did it, THEN he should be punished, we agree. But ban? He should say sorry to all he criticized. Esp Harold.
Maybe we could implement some kind of punishment other that ban? See, we have invented something else then capital punishment after all…

We will really miss KM…. :(

I made the mistake of being myself under my business name and had a couple of folks try to say they'd never buy anything from me, so I tried to do the 'business thing' and tell them they were the greatest and I'd learned my lesson. I've been disappointed in myself ever since for not behaving as I would naturally. Now I no longer comment on any boards that have anything to do with my business except to praise something. I don't involve in interesting debates or ever go against the grain.

That being said, I've also decided not to grovel again either. I act naturally on TMP these days, I just don't say much.

And I took my business name out of my handle during the last bout of TMP shenanigans as I'm not as proud to be a part of the community as I used to be.

It has been suspected by a lot of people for the last 2 years that Khurasan was using sock puppet accounts to, at the very least, boost postings about his figures to the top of the forum listings above any new postings from rival companies.

Can I ask out of more or less "neutral" curiosity, has this been discussed openly on TMP or elsewhere? It's just interesting to me that those people in this thread and on Frothers (judging from what I was able to catch of the chatter over there before it went down again) who know about these suspicions are all manufacturers. This seems to be coming out of a blue sky for all regular hobbyists, unless there are hobbyists who have been in the know and simply aren't joining in this discussion.

I just think that we regular customers deserve more information and a better explanation of what the hell is going on. Right now it's all veils and shadows, which is not only frustrating but can also lead to some heated debate and possibly unwise partisanship (regardless of allegiance).

I was told about the suspicions by another trader at a show in the UK.

Mike

I was told about the suspicions by another trader at a show in the UK.

Interesting. So basically, manufacturers and regular customers have had diverging perceptions of Khurasan for the past couple of years.

I guess I do find it kind of charming that there is a "manufacturers' grapevine", even if the rest of us don't get to be in on it.

Still, in extraordinary cases like this, I advocate getting all the relevant information out there as quickly as possible so that anyone and everyone who's entitled to an opinion on the matter (all customers of miniature manufacturers throughout the entire hobby, basically) can tell where the chips have fallen sooner rather than later. While I'm all for letting cooler heads prevail, there's going to be people picking sides regardless of whether they have all the information or not. Better, then, that they have it.

Of course, by this point, now it's finally becoming clear that suspicions have existed among manufacturers for some time, I don't know if there's much more information to which we haven't been party (aside from the technical nitty-gritty of how the alleged sock puppet was exposed), so I may be making a moot point.

I really don't want to take any sides in this but I'd like to amend Rhoderic's post to say "Suspicions have existed among some manufacturers".

Given the situation, I think it's important for people to be very precise in what they say.

I really don't want to take any sides in this but I'd like to amend Rhoderic's post to say "Suspicions have existed among some manufacturers".

That's a fair cop. It's what I meant, but I can see now how what I wrote could be read as "all manufacturers industry-wide". Sorry.

No fuss, I thought that's what you meant, just wanted to make sure emotions don't run any hotter than they need :)

Can I ask out of more or less "neutral" curiosity, has this been discussed openly on TMP or elsewhere?

It's been a (minor) topic of conversation for 2 (or maybe even 3) years between some manufacturers and 'other parties' at UK shows.

It wasn't 'a big secret'… one manufacturer alluded to it as "the worst kept secret in (15mm) wargaming".

It remained supposition… until now.

Ah, the patented TMP Tempest in a Teacup. You gotta love it!

That being said, I will have no problems ordering from the most incredibly wonderful Khurasan Miniatures in the future, regardless of what is said here. The whole affair seems pretty damn dicey (ha ha) to me.

I also recall a retailer being accused here in the past, and later the accusation had to be retracted…so to assume this method is fool proof can also be proof of a fool.

The more I read this, the more it sounds like a bunch of peeved manufacturers making a colaborative effort to lay the boot in. And on a nameless basis too. I think it absurd if any of you believe sock puppeting is the reason why Khurasan has the success he has. Frankly, clearly superior product is the reason of his success. Christ, the guys store isn't open consistently yet he still comamands a huge following. You want the sort of reputation he has then make something as good. Instead of competing on quality, it appears the next best option was to attack his reputation based on forum antics.

So why not fess up guys and don't leave Bill hanging in the wind here on his own. Clearly your happy to see the accused exposed to us all, seems only fair we get to know the accusers. I'm more than happy to participate in a discussion of the merits of any range that I've considered buying vs the Khurasan range that I ended up buying. Cause I got to say, you think you lost sales to Khurasan because of a sock puppet you may find you were very mistaken.

I think it absurd if any of you believe sock puppeting is the reason why Khurasan has the success he has.

It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with business ethics.

Well I do plan on buying from Khurasan for the first time once he releases some 6mm Sci-Fi I'm interested in. I never saw anything "hinky" about any of him posts. Now this whole "sock puppet" thing along with derisive posts from a website whose name won't be mentioned, etc. really has me a bit surprised and annoyed. Adults, even ones that play with toy soldiers shouldn't act like bullies on a playground or drunken frat boys … With the anonymity that the net provides, has recently demonstrated that some who should know better. Still act like they can say things that normally most well developed grown ups won't say. At least to someone's face. It's just not here but across the internet. But since I frequent here, I find all this a bit disturbing …

No one is disputing that Khurasan produces a good product – which makes it all the more surprising that this should happen.

Mike

The ethics of nameless accusers? If this was about ethics then surely there is no reason to be anonymous?