"15mm Chinese Civil War" Topic

Wasn't quite sure where to put this, but as it runs kinda concurrent with WW1 right through to WW2, this seemed a good place to start.

Some of you may remember that we used to cast Steve Coopers old CCW range. When we parted company Steve took the range with him. As far as I know it has never gone into production.

And ever since they I have toyed with the idea of replacing them with a range of our own, so since I have the postwar British in helmets done, and the postwar Canadians are well under way, and the generic range in Fritz helmets with AKs are done, along with the guard dogs, and the modern US with shotguns, and the modern US with M4 (left handed), an elephant seal, a walrus and one or two other little odds and sods that use up the leftover bits of green…

…I am on to the next project(s).

Chas normally gives me one big project to work on – which may be WW2 Russian, but not quite decided, so I tend to put a second infantry project on the side of it, partly to use up the spare green and partly as I find it restful to have two projects to move between – stops you getting bored.

So…. I'm thinking of the Chinese Civil War, or perhaps more accurately the earlier Warlord period leading to the CCW.

Now I seem to have pretty much the same reference material as just about everyone else, but I'm just trying to organise it into viable packs, so this is your opportunity for input…

Roughly I have

> (1) Rifles (Mauser copies, with/without bayonet)

> (2) LMG (seem to vary between Japanese and Dutch types, all similar in look though)

> (3) Command with (probably) 4 officers, 2 standard bearers and 2 buglers

> (4) Possibly long spears

> (5) Cavalry with sabres

> (6) Assault troops (Dare to die) with a combination of big swords and Mauser pistols

> (7) Mortar with crews

> (8) Artillery crews

> (9) HMG with crews

For uniform types I seem to have:

> (a) Jacket with baggy trousers, puttees and Mao-style caps or

> (b) As above with ‘Tin Hats' or

> (c) As above with fur hats

> (d) Uniform with long trousers, peaked hat (regulars)

I'm open to suggestions, but if I do the top list in the uniform options as per the bottom list that makes 36 different packs and (I think) allows people to mix and match as they like to make up just about any of the warlord cliques that they fancy.

Then I may look at adding regular Chinese and/or Japanese for the later period.

I fully support this. I had the old range (and to be honest wasn't impressed with the figures at the time), but there weren't many other alternatives. I ended up selling them off. Would love to start up another 15mm Warlord project.

Well you are in at the right time… I've started a few figures, but I'm willing to defer to better knowledge of what is needed.

Nice list. I would like to see a "warlord" pack with a warlord mounted and on foot, maybe a staff person or two. I know that is more of the icing on the cake than a must have item.

White Russians?

I assume the German style helmet is of a slightly later period than you are interested in right now, correct?

I would be all over this. Pulp gamers could use them for "Back of Beyond" games, to. Right now, I am stuck with filing the pony tail off the back of Old Glory Boxer-era Chinese regulars.

I hadn't included 'personality' packs, but have a few noted.

Yes, may need to add a pack of white Russians.

I believe the German and Japanese helmeted troops came later, but feel free to correct me. It may be possible to expand this range into the later civil war period

All this sounds good. Got a rough ETA in mind Geoff?

German helmets would be for the 30's.

This is more the Warlord period than the Civil War, but sounds good regardless. Plenty of surplus WW1 kit floating around, including German, from the 20s onwards. Copplestone's Back of Beyond range has plenty of visual cues for inspiration.

Yes, didn't I say that?

Peasanty types with improvised weapons and muskets? (They were still in use even then). I am looking forward to this range terribly.

There are two Osprey books covering this subject, one specifically dedicated to it, and there's also an in-depth volume of several hundred pages on the warlord armies by the author of the latter published last year – so there's no shortage of uniform and equipment information.

Merely supporting your clarification Geoff.

There are two Osprey books covering this subject, one specifically dedicated to it, and there's also an in-depth volume of several hundred pages on the warlord armies by the author of the latter published last year

Bit more info? Author? Which latter? Got a link?

This one perhaps: link (If so, I have that one and the CCW one already, ie I seem to have pretty much the same reference material as just about everyone else) ;-)

If you mean this one: link

Well, it's probably not worth spending £50.00 GBP, for what sounds like the same illustrations as the Osprey books.

I should emphasise, this is unlikely to be a massive and fully comprehensive range; I am not likely to produce individual sets of figures for each and every different warlord group. It is a niche area and the figures simply wont sell in sufficient depth to support it, but I want to get enough packs to make it playable.

The packs you are proposing all sound great and I would be a buyer as long as they are in 15mm They could also be used for Chinese forces in the Sino Japanese war as uniforms were varied to say the least.

I have been researching this topic for a while and had an opportunity to search for books in China as well and can only say that there are few choices in Chinese and even less in English The ones suggested earlier in this thread are amongst the best of what is available.

I have found out that the best way to research is by internet sources You begin by gaining a general familiarity with the army or warlord you are interested iby starting with Wikipedia or similar sites There are several forums on Chinese History as well This allows you to start getting names and dates Once you have that you will then spend a lot of time doing picture searches The more you find the more sources open up.

There are specialist books available and some recent ones but due to their specialist market they are not cheap A search on Amazon will show you some The one trouble with these books as they do not have many pictures but do have lots of text They also can be written from varied political points of view so the interpretation and facts can vary from one to another.

As for figure ideas guys that look like these would be perfect for me

link

link

I would suggest that some foreign interventionist troops would be very useful and I know that you already have some in your inventory Landing parties of Marines and sailors from a variety of countries would be very useful ( UK, USA , Japan,France,etc) A nice big open air American 1925 era limo would be great along with multi medalled occupants with fancy headgear

This is exciting! A few of us at our club have just started toying with the idea of Back of Beyond games in 15mm. Peter Pig has RCW well covered, but there's a big gap as far as Chinese are concerned.

Those be the ones I had in mind.

Peasanty types with improvised weapons and muskets?

Noted

uniforms were varied to say the least

Yes, I realised that 'uniform' is used in a loose sense

I'd go in for a Chinese army group that were know, carried, and I think called, the "long swords". I've also seen Chinese early ww2 in german kit. Where is the current best source material?

Chinese army group that were know, carried, and I think called, the "long swords"

I think that may be the 'big swords'

link

I've also seen Chinese early ww2 in german kit

The German kit seems to be later, i.e. the 1930s.

Where is the current best source material?

Well… that is part of the problem. It is very limited.

I would be really interested in such a range of figures. In terms of literature, which include uniform and equipment pictures too, I would suggest the following:

China's Wars: Rousing the Dragon 1894-1949 (good introduction to the period, although not particularly in depth. Plenty of pics though): link

China's War with Japan, 1937-1945: The Struggle for Survival (very well written account by Rana Mitter, Professor of the History and Politics of Modern China at Oxford. Although written by an academic this is not dull prose): link

(Rana Mitter has discussed China's war with Japan on the Radio 4 programme 'In Our Time': link )

Shanghai 1937: Stalingrad on the Yangtze (I haven't read this one yet, but a good selection of pictures): link

The Greatest Tumult: Chinese Civil War, 1936-49 (good, clear account of the war. The photos show the diversity of uniforms that each side wore and their various equipment):
link

Osprey cover the Chinese Civil War in their Essential Histories series (another good and concise view of the war with plenty of pics): link

Hope this helps,

Ezza

Thanks Ezza, just ordered one of those

I will be very interested – pledge of support from me

Blodwin

Hi

I'm all for more variety but there are ranges available from Irregular and Eureka which cover the Chinese armies from the Warlord to the Civil War:-

link
link

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

Is it just me who is slightly surprised at the quality of the Eureka models…?

Some of Eureka's figures are nice but they are inconsistent. The Big Sword man sculpt is missing a hand, its just a sword attached to an arm. Some figures appear bigger than others. I haven't seen the Irregular in person but their sculpts can be both stiff and also inconsistent. They make beautiful castings and subpar ones, often in the same range (and I buy a good amount of their figures). I have a heap of Peter Pig, Eureka and others for this period but I never finished the project because of gaps in ranges and too many conversions…

Well, that was partly my purpose for posting the list above, to give those with more knowledge of the period the opportunity to say "what they range really needs is a…"

Geoff

I wanted to do the Warlord Era in 10mm but was lacking the Do-or-Die and peasant/bandit types. So it would be good to include them in your range. (On reflection I'm suddenly wondering whether Viet Cong might work for the latter in 10mm, but that's another matter.)

Uniforms were discussed on TMP here: TMP link

I was planning a Fengtian (Manchurian) army in fur caps and greatcoats and those 'pork pie' caps like the Japanese wore in the Russo-Japanese War, and a National Revolutionary/Kuomintang (Southern) army in peak caps with wide crowns (like WW1 Russians and British).

Those particular armies were arguably the most important ones of the era and, I think, somewhat iconic.

As far as I can see, the Dare To Die troops were just a sort of forlorn hope, assault troops often armed with big swords and/or popularly the Mauser pistol.

The 'Big Sword' groups seem to be the same thing?

Yes, all the same thing I believe.

Peasants dressed in…?

Civilian clothes and conical hats. Soldiers could also carry the latter.

By civilian clothes, baggy trousers and loose shirts with no puttees? And what sort of weapons? Anyone got any pictureS?

Probably easy to Google. Just turned up this one.

link

I bought Jowett's longer book which I hadn't encountered before (£26.66 second-hand, brand new condition, via Amazon). It has six Osprey-style plates, but only two of these are shared with Jowett's Osprey title. I've only had time to skim it, but it's packed with photos and looks like a very worthwhile purchase.