"Prices of historical miniatures." Topic

Is it just me or are the prices of Historical miniatures getting out of hand. $3 USD a piece for an historical miniature is a bit much. There are several new miniatures on the market which are very tempting but at 9 pounds for six figures plus 25% shipping to the US it is too much. I build large regiments 24-30 figures. So I am looking at around $100 USD a regiment. And not just UK companies. Saw some super nice miniatures in the US for $15 USD for 5 figures. Just an observation. Not wanting to start anything.

May be your age (smile).

I started buying metal 25 mm Mini-Figs in the early 1970s for 25 cents a foot figure.

Those days are long gone.

The quality and huge selection that we have today keeps me happy, even when I'm gagging on the costs.

Dan

Try buying second-hand figs, or armies, if you can.

They're a lot more affordable, and just as nice at half the price.

;-)

Kind of hard to buy second hand when the figures are new releases.

I am afraid the good old days are long gone. But yes, I think the prices are very high. If a potential project involves more than a skirmish sized force, I always check to see what Old Glory has. More than one project has been abandoned due to cost. Plastics are fairly reasonably priced as well.

One (only one) of the reasons I went with 15mm when I came back into the hobby a decade back.

Try buying from Australia!
But agree, prices have leapt for metals and I'm only buying metal 28s during sales, or as noted second hand.

The sculptors feel compelled (or is it the company?) to produce 6 different figures per pack , even or especially if they are the same pose.
Why is that necessary, particularly if the line is aimed at people building battalions and regiments. Surely that contributes to the cost.
Would it be cheaper to produce one figure of French Line advancing, or of one Roman a legionary throwing pilum? Why do you need one glancing to the left, one to the right, etc.
Why are we tied to 6 figures in a blister?
A line designed to be fielded in battalions should be sold either individually (see Fife and Drum) or in bags of 30 (see Old Glory).
Selling in bags of 30 (or 50 or 100) also has a coat saving benefit.

Let's face it. There are companies who consciously sell $3 USD figures and those who sell $1 USD figures on the same scale. And I see NO difference in quality.

Buy plastic? I prefer metal and can afford it (certainly I can buy it faster than I can paint it), but the plastic figures are acceptable cheaper alternatives if money is an issue.

The ranges I am speaking of do not have plastic alternatives.

Get an Old Glory card and use their amazing member discount.
Well worth it.

And the guys selling them for $3 USD probably don't earn a livibg wage at that. If profit were the motive this hobby would not exist.

What scale, it seems you are talking 28mm. No such issues in 10mm or 6mm or 15mm or 20mm. As people point out most 28mm are still affordable. Old Glory, crusader etc. Your issue is when you buy really rare topics.

Old Glory can sell cheaply because their molds and casting are done by them. They also have the benefit of an in house sculptor, I believe. I may be wrong about that. But a lot of their molds are paid for. I only really know AWI. When was the last new release from OG for AWI? Years ago they did OG 2 and released a few marching poses. And then…..nothing.

To have 16 figures sculpted costs 2,000 dollars. To have molds made is another 4 or five hundreds, because you need "dollie" molds and then masters and production molds.
And then you need to have the casting done. Depending on the fluctuation of metal prices your looking at about 75-85 spins per thousand bucks, if you include shipping. Each spin yielding about 16 figures per.

So, before you sell a single figure you are down 3,500 bucks. You do have a 1600 hundred figure inventory and a mold made.

If we sell every single figure at 3 bucks per we would end up with 4800 dollars, leaving us a profit of a whopping 1300 bucks.
But wait there's more.

You forgot advertising, so you'll need a website. Not a "do it yourself" job because you need a shopping cart and all sorts of stuff. There goes 6 hundred bucks to the web guy, the provider and the domain name guy.

OK we still have 7 hundred left. Whoops, you need poly bags and header cards. And shipping boxes. And packing tape and materials. Exit another 200.

Down to 500 now. Oh, I forgot. There's advertising on TMP and other sites so that someone knows that you have figures for sale. And you have to send out samples to all of the glossies and review guys. Probably another 200 lost.

300 left.

And of course you'll need painted samples to put up on your website. So you have to pay a professional figure painter to
show off your figures in their best light. A very good pro painter charges 10-12 dollars per figure. Times 16 figures that's another say, $175 USD out the window.

$125 USD remains.

What about all of the time invested? Don't your employees get paid for all the time it takes to shoot pix, pack orders, keep records and so forth?

OK, you get the picture. No one is getting rich selling figures at 3 bucks each. Wargamers whine about not enough poses or limited periods and then they cry price gouger when they have to pony up for what amounts to a non-profit business.

I own Kings Mountain Miniatures and I can tell you that the venture has me down about 15,000 dollars at this point.
I do hope to make some of that up as time goes on. The sculpting is done and the molds made and figures cast.

Now they just have to sell. I didn't start this to make money. I did it like many, many others because I wanted to offer a different product that wasn't being produced by anyone else, my Highlanders.
It was strictly a labor of love and I expected to lose money on the deal. Most guys who make their own brand of figures are taking a bath. They do it because they love it.

So RXPJKS1, next time you don't want to spend the 3 bucks, remember that without your support the maker goes under and it's you that suffers.

By they way, what do you think that a 28 mm figure should cost? I would be most interested to know.

It would be interesting to get a manufacturer's perspective on this and to see how costs break down. i imagine it is fairly costly to produce the "prototype" in the first place, sculpting is a time consuming and skilled business. If the production run is then only a few hundred, the initial costs have to be recovered within that run. When thousands, or even tens of thousands, are being produced then costs are recovered earlier and it's then down to the actual production expenses. We all want officers, drummers, standard bearers etc, but an army of 300 or so might only need 30 of these figures so they actually cost a lot more to make than the basic infantryman or cavalryman.
Personally, I have pretty well moved out of 28mm, not so much because of the cost but because I can paint 10 10mm figures in the time it takes me to do one 28mm. 10mm white metal tanks retail at between 3 to 6 pounds sterling,they probably contain less metal than a 28 mm figure selling at £1.50 GBP, but I am happy to pay that to get a decent sculpt and a rare model.

Well steaminDave, see above.

Good post, nevinsrip. A reminder of the facts of life every now and then does us all good!

nevinsrip broke it all down really well.

Something that was not factored in however was retailer and distributor discounts. Retailers can get 30 to 35% off and distributors 45 to 50% off. Selling to third parties is a real profit killer.

If you can't mould, cast and sculpt in house you really will not make any profit to speak of.

That is why myself and Julian sold the Victrix Metal range in the end. They were great figures by a great sculptor Paul Hicks but was too much work for peanuts. The only people making money out of it were the third parties, the casting company and the sculptor.

Regards,

Steve.

nevinsrip, great post. I'm sure you left out a few expenses.

What's a fair price for a 28mm figure? I can't say but they seem to sell for between $2.00 USD – $5.00 USD. I've bought figures for $9.00 USD not sold as historicals but usefull.

The bigger companies have an economy of scale that helps keep their costs/prices down the small guy can't do this.

I see miniatures as works of art. The more I like how they look the more I'm willing to pay ,up to a point:-).

Steve, good point but are the retailers and ditributors getting a discount or is that their markup? Those are not huge margins. In nevinsrip's example he sells to the distributor for a $1.50 USD who sell it for $2.25 USD to the retailer who sells it for $3.00 USD. Peanuts is correct for his profit if there is any.

nevinsrip: Thank you for the illustration -- TBH (without knowing) I'd guessed that having outsourced mould-making & casting would be cheaper than doing it inhouse; just because the outsourcer can work in bulk.

Fusilier Dan, That is the discount they get. They don't mark that up on top as they would never be able to sell the product 30 to 40% high than the manufacturer.

You can try to just sell direct but then people don't want to pay what postage actually costs. Try sending a 3kg parcel of metal to Australia for example, it will make you weep when you look at the price. You either take some of that cost on the chin or you sell to retailer or distributor and take a really low margin.

I tip my hat to those who can make metal figure manufacturing work for them!

I think it's true that gamers as a breed tend to buy much more lead than they need or are likely to paint. Hence the phrase "lead mountain". It's true that 28mm figures especially aren't cheap if you want to do more than a skirmish game, but I think many of us make it worse by buying loads of stuff that goes in a box in a spare room and never sees the light of day again. If you stick to one particular project, and only buy what you're realistically going to paint in the short/mid term then I don't think the costs are necessarily prohibitive.

And it's really a one time cost. Once you've got your Napoleonic Austrians or Romans or Vikings or whatever, then they'll last you a lifetime.

Old Glory and Irregular are both great sources for affordable historical miniatures, and the number of periods they cover is huge. I highly recommend both.

Well I was told making 28 was not so much more expensive as 15 mm…. The margin is so much better that is surprise so many 28 come around.

It sure make a whole difference if you make everything from sculpting to finish.

Your money has actually a lot less buying power than ten years ago, despite what you are being told.

Wait 20 years, you can have cheap minis from 3D printing?

It is a hobby, you're supposed to spend money on it. Hence the lead mountain. I'm just happy the mfg make the figures. It's always amazing to find out what I need when they make new figures available.

Yes, we have so much nowadays. Cornucopia.

Steve LBMS is correct. If you wish to have others sell your product you have to discount 30-40%.
It's just not woth it for me. I tried it and got killed.

I also forgot the expense of conventions and shows.
Factor that in and you are really taking a beating.

what ababout older sculpts though? Foundry, and this is just an example, has had their most popular ranges out for over a decade – they still recouping cost of initial production? Fully understand the cost situation for a totally new line mind tou.

Foundry has certainly, on many ranges, "turned the corner" and are now actually making money. But if the figures sell at $3 USD why would you lower the price later just because you're finally actually making a profit?

Cost is always an interesting one to consider. I suspect most who bemoan the price of miniatures have hundreds if not thousands of unpainted figures hanging around, although I'm not suggesting that is the case with the OP. Either sell them and buy something you do want or paint them but don't buy any more until you've got nearly nothing left. If you can only get one unit painted a month then only buy one unit a month. Spread the cost.

If the price of 28mm metal figures really are too much for your budget then consider 28mm or 1/72 plastics, if available for your chosen period, or consider a smaller scale in metal where significant cost savings can be made. An alternative, which I've used for one of my projects, is to choose an older figure line which I can pick up on ebay as unloved second hand figures often for less than $1 USD a casting. When painted in a contemporary style they can be made to look good.

Having worked in the industry I'm always amazed that companies can produce what they do, at the price they sell it for and still make enough profit to make it all worthwhile.

Of all my hobbies wargaming is by far the cheapest and given the amount of time I spend on it and thus hours of pleasure I get I reckon I more than get value for money.

nevinsrip and STEVE LBMS

You're right I'm just doing the math from the other direction but coming up with the same amount of peanuts. The manufaturer needs a certain price point to make a profit but the market will only bear a certain price. The supply chain can only handle so many mark ups.

Even established companies have to replace worn out molds and deal with raw material and other overhead cost increases.

As others have noted the price seems to be what people are willing to pay for something most readily admit they have way too many of.

I think we're allowed to moan about pricing without hurting feelings ;)

Here's a thought, maybe more manufacturers should stop "stepping on each other" by not doing the same period in triplicate. I mean, how many ranges of Waterloo armies really need to be in production? Think about it. I know I know, someone is going to say I'm being insensitive. Good for the hobby etcetera. 3$ USD for one chap is a lot, and frankly I don't see anyway around that. A 24 piece battalion in scale would be 72 $ plus P&H. If your doing a moderate "black powder" project that's fine, 15-20 battalions, 5-15 squadrons, some cannon, there's 3K$. Right there. Ever since my cataract surgery my painting is way wayyyyy better than it ever was, I have no use for anything smaller than 25-28. I'd rather have a thousand bigs , rather than 2500 littles. Rxpjks is correct in his assessment. My thoughts? We are going to smaller collections in fewer periods, but that's fine with me. I no longer am in agreement with smaller figures, now that my work has improved. Guess I'm a butt head.

Guess I'm a butt head.

You said it, not me.

Clays Russians, answer your own question.

I mean, how many ranges of Waterloo armies really need to be in production?

Well, how many DO need to be in production?
And who makes that decision? The Market.
Manufacturers make what they think will sell.
And if they are NOT allowed to make Waterloo Napoleonics, what ranges SHOULD they be making, and who is to tell them?

Bill nebvinsrip said above that he had produced his own AWI Highlanders in … pants rather than kilts because … "because I wanted to offer a different product that wasn't being produced by anyone else, my Highlanders."
Well, I would dispute the "not produced by anyone else" part.
I have seen Front Rank (one [pose), Perry (6 poses that are nothing but the same pose with slightly different head poses) and Old Glory (far too energetic).
I bought Bill's at a convention because I had seen pictures of them and thought it was high time to do the 2nd and 3rd battalions for my own 71st.
Old Glory was far cheaper, Perry was comparable to his in price (+/- 10%, and once you are not doing Old Glory, what difference does it make?) and I didn't know where to get Front Rank. Troiani's plate inspired me.
In this case the Market (in the form of ME) decided I liked Bill's figures better, and they have had a few battles on my table since.
I had 4 choices to make of non-kilted AWI Highlanders. And I chose the one I liked best.

So, HOW many Waterloo armies are "needed"? If I were fool enough to do Waterloo in 25/28mm, I would probably choose Old Glory for the bulk of them, since I would "need" quite a few regiments that were virtually identical.
I" might go with more expensive ones, if I felt they were objectivley and subjectively "better". The Market.
And what if I did not like ANY Waterloo figures? Going back to my above, I went with King's Mountain for the 2nd and 3rd battalions of my 71st because the quality of them jogged me into getting them and putting them in the front of my queue.

I don't really care how many ranges of waterloo figures there are, since I ain't getting ANY of them! Other peopel in my group do Nappies, and I have no interest because they let me play in their games, and I let them play in mine.
Do I tell them what to buy and how much they should pay? Nope. That's not my problem.

And BTW, ignore Winston above.
I

It was a rhetorical point, not intended to influence anyone. If you need x y z for kings mountain then by all means, buy,,,,,,all means. I cringe when I see ACW with the wrong gear or at the wrong pose. Your point is valid. However I am not sure how I offended anyone. What I was trying to say, in my humble overwrought opinion, was that we will probably see a trend of smaller armies in larger scales and folks my reign in their projects to the ones that they love, yours in south theater revwar. And that's cool. Mine is crimean war. 3$ a piece is probably here to stay. Just be more careful with the purse strings. It is what it is, yes that's a high price, but there is nothing that really can be done about it.

John When I said not produced by anyone else, I was talking about poses. My Highlanders come in 31 different poses including wounded/dead, 2 mounted, firing, full command and many other poses, that no one else offered. You could hardly do a battle scene with the 6 Perry poses, which are just all advancing poses.

ONE Front Rank pose?? Really! Let's no go there.

OG They generally have 10 poses per 30 figure pack, so you get a decent assortment. But they are still OG sculpts. Cheap for a reason.

My figures were made not just for wargamers, but for collectors, diorama makers and figure painters. I used all top notch people to get them made correctly and with the best materials available.

And top notch costs way more than just okay.

I'm still waiting for the original poster to reply and let us know how much he thinks a figure should cost.
As another note I don't charge 3 bucks a figure. I try to keep it down at 2.50 each.

Well,there is cheap, and then there is …

I made an analogy over a few beers the other night. When I was growing up, you were either a Phillies fan or a Yankee fan. To drive to one, it took less than 2 hours. to get to the other it took a little less than three.
In either case, you were taking the whole day to go see a baseball game, although one was a full hour longer round trip. The difference between a &2.50 figure and a &3 one is of the same order of magnitude.

The bottom line is that I bought yours because I thought they were the best.

Hi Bill,
Nice looking figures! Sorry I don't need any of them right now.

I pay Canadian funds for my figures, which usually means I'm paying a premium.
Thus a Calpe figure is about $2.20 USDCdn. That is not unreasonable for a very well sculpted figure.
It's the postage that kills me…

I think models should be a buck 1USD$ a piece, the Yankees and the sox should chase the pennant every September against each other and one of the two should be in the World Series. Pancakes are the yummiest breakfast you could have and you should have them every morning. Beer is to be consumed thru every battle. All French Napoleonic line infantry should be banned from being modeled in greatcoats ( no I don't do napoleonics, but Russians are always poking me in the tummy for attention. ) EVERYBODY should have cataract surgery at the age of 50! Your work will improve……I wanna do saga mongol, orthodox Rus, and Byzantines, and eastern crusaders all at the same time, because $$$ flows out of my booty like rose scented wind. Buuuuut, we take what we can when we can. And on the eighth day, god created the Rus…..

I would debate the sculpting quality remarks. Unless the manufacturers are their own sculptors (e.g. Perry Miniatures) as they do not have to pay for sculpting for most of their offerings, the costs are relative to the individual company. If one wants to hire a top notch sculptor that costs more than an average one. Some companies have a sculptor on staff. If the range is large, the cost is distributed over a large amount of sales and therefore much less per product than the smaller niche companies. Add to this the costs for contracting molding and casting in most cases. I have the pleasure of working with some really talented people that help me with sculpting and molding. I do not undervalue their work and prefer to put out a really high quality product.

One thing no one has discussed is risk.

The manufacturer always takes a risk when releasing a product. There is no guarantee anyone will buy what we make. While some can attract enough to cover the sunk costs in a weekend at a show, most do not. Some products can take months or over a year to turn a profit. And that is forgetting the items that never catch on. We all have the packs that "everyone wants" but rarely buys. Nice range additions or fillers that never make any money. And some of us have ranges that have never caught on.

Nevinsrip forgot to add the interest to finance the debt taken on for these projects.

So yeah, while $3 USD may seem high, the reality is we are not at all going home after a convention and bringing buckets of money to the bank.

It is a hobby. Compared with model railroading or even the larger fantasy wargaming, our hobby is generally very inexpensive. There is plenty of choice – from size to price – plenty for anyone. We tend to spend a lot of time doing things in the hobby to get our miniatures ready. One should also value their time prepping and painting products as well. This becomes more apparent if we have children and definitely as we get older. If a product can be prepped easier and faster than another, which is worth more? Depends how you value your time. Same goes for painting.

I guess it all comes down to simple economics. One can charge what the market will bare.In the last few years many skirmish rules have been published that don't call for major investments in figures. They have become extremely popular.
Not many folks can build large Napoleonic armies in 28mm anymore. So they go to 15mm or 10mm or even 6mm. I see alot of that going on.
People tend to adjust to changing pricing along with product availability.
If a dealer wants $4 USD a figure he shouldn't be surprised that he sells very few unless he works a marketing plan that ties in figures to rules….

My original post came from some frustration on my part. A new company has a range of figures I would love to have. However I build for large games. 30 man regiments. At even $2 USD each my order for the 300 figures I need, would already have been in the mail. At $3 USD I cannot justify the expense.
So a possible $600 USD purchase versus the actual 0 dollars spent. Maybe instead of Scale Creep we can start a new phrase, Price Creep. Is just seems that all the new figures are in the $3 USD range. And as has been said above, the market will decide.

Rx, I would contact the vendor. Very often money talks and if the vendor knew he was losing that large of a sale he might give you a good break. Costs you nothing to give it a shot….

Yes, that is true. Most dealers will offer discounts for larger orders. I also give veterans a 10% disount, as do some others, I'm sure. All of that comes right out of my pocket.
I would probably make more money at 3 bucks a figure, but I am trying to keep it down because in leaner times, I could not afford 3 bucks a figure. So, I know how that feels.

There is another side to the story also.

Try selling some of your large and unpainted metal collection, acquired over the years and listen to folks squawk that you are ripping them off because you want 50% of your cost. How dare you want to recap some of your loss?

Frankly, too many members of our hobby are, may I say, cheap? Not most, maybe even not many, but a good size percentage.

Even painted figures are blasted if they cost more than their metal price sometimes.

Dan

I had a flea market table at Cold Wars. I sold a bunch of "Island of abandoned Projects" figures for a buck apiece. Nobody complained.

If your doing a moderate "black powder" project that's fine, 15-20 battalions, 5-15 squadrons, some cannon, there's 3K$. Right there. Ever since my cataract surgery my painting is way wayyyyy better than it ever was, I have no use for anything smaller than 25-28.

Let's look at it this way. How long would it take to paint all those figures? What is your time worth? Then how much time and materials go into basing of all those figures?

What about all the rule sets that you have bought until you settled on the one you want?

Then there are the storage and transport bins to shlep you new army to the Conventions. Add the price of the Con, the hotel charges, the travel and eating expenses, etc.

I think if you look at your finished army, the actual cost of the figures is much less than you think. In my case, the most expensive part of this hobby is my time.

When I started out in The Hobby in the 1970s, I paid $.25 USD for 25mn figures. That's the price we should be paying.

That's a cent per millimetre, so with scale creep the current price should be thirty cents.