"The Last Alliance, and the battle of Dagorlad" Topic

The Silmarillion states:

"From Imladris they crossed the Misty Mountains by many passes and marched down the River Anduin, and so came at last upon the host of Sauron on Dagorlad, the Battle Plain, which lies before the gate of the Black Land. All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone stood undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron."

Does this give license to have Dwarves, or Ents, or Trolls on BOTH sides??

What do you all reckon to this passage?

Dwarfs yes, I am not sure Ents fought on either side in that way, but Trolls and Orcs/Goblins would be Sauron only.

It does mean you could have good wolves on your side though.

I reckon it gives you just enough wiggle room to play a game how you like. Or at the very least give some plausibility to a 'what if' scenario.

If I had to commit to a view, I'd say that it shows how corruptible the 'living things' are, so animals and less resolute being also fought with Sauron. The lofty elves were to steadfast to succum to corruption and the Dwarves, by and large, were not involved as they love gold above all things.

So I guess you have to ask yourself: Could an Ent be corrupted like that?

But hey, I'm no Tolkien scholar, just basing my view on what I know of LotR and the quoted text above!

Well Melkor was unable to corrupt Ents, hence his creation of Trolls as copies, orcs were corrupted elves originally, and dwarfs are only good guys if they are of the Race of Durin.

It is hard to imagine "good" Orcs and Trolls fighting on the side of the Last Alliance; but OTOH, it isn't that hard to imagine "rebel" orcs and trolls fightings against Sauron. Other passages in LotR seem to indicate that rebellions were a problem for Sauron.

Dragons? Great Eagles? The spider spawn of Ungoliant?

I'd treat it as a case of Tolkien not really meaning what he wrote.

I think it certainly opens a lot of possibilities. Granted, Tolkien may have been using hyperbole to show how incorruptible the Elves were. But the ents did fight the Dwarves at some point irrc, and Old Man Willow was happy enough to gobble up a few harmless hobbits (I know he wasn't an Ent, or Huorn, but but he was certainly related)

The Dwarves of the East could easily have "followed" Sauron, just like the men of the east. Maybe it was an opportunity to get back at the Elves for past grievances!

But it certainly provides for an interesting OOB for both sides!

I think you have a point about Ents. I can see evil Huorns fighting for Sauron (or – as you've said – what was Old Man Willow?).

Dwarves and men, yes: both sides. Wolves? Well Huan was a big smart – and good – dog so…. maybe. Good Trolls and Orcs? Almost certainly not but they are happy enough to fight each other so – if your enemy's enemy is your friend…

Bad Hobbits? Hmmmm… ;)

Good question, though.

John T

I think it's largely poetic, but when boiled down to "fact" would mean pretty much what we normally expect of alignment in Tolkien's world -- so of the birds one would see crows swarming as recon for Sauron, whereas the Eagles would fight for the alliance, and so on.

What, no "dark elves?" Where do they come from then? Who made them up? Did Tolkien spin in his grave?

"All living things were divided in that day" means exactly what it says: men and elves had already been divided, into men who followed "good" and evil men, as well as the mutating that Morgoth had caused with captive men and elves to create goblins and orcs, so, even elves were divided in that sense. Uncorrupted, pure, elves remained wholly against Sauron. Beasts of the air divided with some species in thrall to the darkness and others not. Wolves of the elder ages variety were wholly in thrall to the darkness. Dogs would go with whoever their masters were. And so it went. Trolls originally were bred by Morgoth from unknown origins, possibly in imitation of Ents. Thus trolls already constitute a division of Ent-like creatures into "good and evil" versions. Ents would not have fought for Sauron, but then neither did they fight at Dagorlad. Any wicked sapient "trees" would have been kept in check by Treebeard and his kind. So although not on the battlefield for the apocalyptic confrontation, the sapient flora was also "divided in that day", albeit heavily on the side of light rather than darkness….

The Dwarven Kings were involved in the war, but due to the location of their kingdoms and insular nature probably were stuck fighting Orcs, Trolls, Dragons and the like, along with the evil Dwarf Kings. What good Dwarves would fight in the battle of Dagorlad would likely be in small numbers and probably in an advisory role, such as the supply and siege train in the siege of Barad Dur.

Good Orcs and Trolls would almost certainly be a rarity and caught in internecine warfare with their evil kin, though perhaps good Orcs might have fought Evil Dwarves.

Evil Ents would likely be indistinguishable from extremely powerful Huorns. Huorns are again insular and rarely move from their places. They are unlikely to march in dramatic fashion and more likely to be an "Area Hazard" like Lurkers in Hordes of the Things.

Evil Men in that period at Dagorlad or Barad Dur would likely be individual volunteers: Sorcerers, Officers, Engineers etc. Rather than the armies of Easterlings, Haradrim, and Corsairs from later periods. Maybe small groups of Easterling and Proto-Variag Cavalry could be possible.

Evil Hobbits, would probably just . . .murder other hobbits?

"… uncorrupted elves…" that is a hoot.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noldor

"…But Melkor sowed lies, and in the end the peace in Tirion was poisoned. Fëanor, having rebelled against Fingolfin his half-brother, was banished, and with him went Finwë his father. Fingolfin remained as the ruler of the Noldor of Tirion.

But Melkor had yet other designs to accomplish. Soon after with the aid of Ungoliant he slew the Two Trees, and coming to Formenos he killed Finwë, stole the Silmarils and departed from Aman. Fëanor then, driven by the desire of vengeance, rebelled against the Valar and made a speech before the Noldor, persuading them to leave Valinor, follow Melkor to Middle-earth and wage war against him for the recovery of the Silmarils. He swore a terrible oath to pursue Melkor and claimed the title of the High King; but though the greater part of the Noldor still held Fingolfin as King, they followed Fëanor to be not separated from their kin.

Exile to Middle-earth[edit]
The Noldor led by Fëanor demanded that the Teleri let them use their ships. When the Teleri refused, they took the ships by force, committing the first kinslaying. A messenger from the Valar came later and delivered the Prophecy of the North, pronouncing the Doom of Mandos on the Noldor for the Kinslaying and rebellion and warning that if they proceeded they would not recover the Silmarils and moreover that they all will be slain or tormented by grief. At this, some of the Noldor who had no hand in the Kinslaying, including Finarfin son of Finwë and Indis, returned to Valinor, and the Valar forgave them. Other Noldor led by Fingolfin (some of whom were blameless in the Kinslaying) remained determined to leave Valinor for Middle-earth. Prominent among these others was Finarfin's son, Finrod.

The Noldor led by Fëanor crossed the sea to Middle-earth, leaving those led by Fingolfin, his half-brother, behind. Upon his arrival in Middle-earth, Fëanor had the ships burned. When the Noldor led by Fingolfin discovered their betrayal, they went farther north and crossed the sea at the Grinding Ice which cost them many lives. With the Two Trees destroyed by Melkor, the departure of the Noldor out of the Undying Lands marked the end of the Years of the Trees, and the beginning of the Years of the Sun when the Valar created the Moon and the Sun out of Telperion's last flower and Laurelin's last fruit…"

Mass Murder?

Rebellion against a just Lord?

Vengeance above obedience to just authority?

Abandoning their kin by burning the boats?

Oh, very corrupted…

Undivided in foolishly following Fëanor's ego guided doom, yes.

What, no "dark elves?" Where do they come from then? Who made them up? Did Tolkien spin in his grave?

I was going to say much of what mute bystander said: Feanor's children didn't need to consciously follow Morgoth to do his bidding: plenty of death, destruction and mayhem there without need to swap sides…

And then there's Maeglin and his kidnapping, abusive, evil sword making father Eol. And he's only related to Feanor tangentially… (and was described indeed as a 'Dark Elf').

But I doubt any of them would actually have fought for Sauron unless tricked into doing so.

John T

Oh, very corrupted…

I erred in brevity. The corruption I was talking about is Morgoth's physical corruption into orcs, etc. Not Elves being above "court intrigues" and the like.

If Tolkien said that only Elves were undivided that day, it must mean that their experiences of "corrupt politics" and family feuding had taught them a lesson from sorrow. Certainly by the Third Age Elves have all withdraw from such infighting. The closest to being bellicose in the old way are the Wood Elves of Mirkwood. Even they stood not the slightest chance of fighting for the evil Sauron….

I guess regarding your original question Ace, modern Dark Elves oh more to the Svartelves of Norse mythology than Tolkien.

Also the Wood Elves of today are likely more based on Celtic Elves than Sindarin elves.

The important thing to remember is that The Silmarillion is definitely 'legend' (or even 'scripture') and written as such, much more so than The Hobbit or LOTR. I give Tolkien a lot more poetic license for that reason. So I'd read the passage as referring to beings with a free will, so to speak; Trolls and Orcs were creations of Morgoth and as such didn't really have a choice in the matter. Man, beasts and birds all did have a choice though.

-Will