"Novice questions" Topic
15 Posts
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kosarev | 24 Feb 2015 7:01 a.m. PST |
So after years of playing fantasy games I have decided that a break is needed, and nothing better than some napoleonic miniatures. My idea is to begin painting a French line infantry regiment, but I have some questions I hope people here can help me with: -which formation is best for the French? Line or column. -only one of the regiments battalions wore the eagle. If that's so, what were the standards of the others like? Like the regimental but without eagle? -Number of men per battalion? I have bought a warlord line infantry box to begin with. Comes with 28 line + 4 officers. Enough to more or less represent a battalion? -Officer composition. The box comes with 2 officers, drummer and bannerholder. Suggestions or its those enough? -Lastly (sorry for being shuch a bother), as I said I have bought a box of warlord linemen. I'm quite happy with them, but I may need some diversity for the other battalions so the soldiers don't looks like clones. Any other brand that would look nice? Local shop also has victrix and Perry's line. If needed I can buy online, but I prefer to support the local shop. Thanks for your patience reading this wall of text, sorry for my broken English, and any suggestions are welcome! Pd: this is the one I have painted (just uniform and face) to serve as a guideline for the rest. Crappy mobile phone quality: m.imgur.com/zsk8c4t |
Kelly Armstrong | 24 Feb 2015 7:59 a.m. PST |
The rules you choose to play with should give guidelines for basing the figures. . . what size base, number of figures per base, how many bases represent battalion/regiment/brigade. If you play at the local shop, I would suggest adopting whatever rules they use. Black Powder seems to be a popular set of rules for 25+mm minis. Best formation? again, refer to the rules set. Formations on the battlefield are like playing rock/paper/scissors; each one has its merits. Formation for mounting on bases to play the game, refer to your rules for guidance. I'll let other comment on mixing manufacturers and standards. I have my approaches but don't know too much about alternatives. Nice looking paint job to start with. |
Artilleryman | 24 Feb 2015 8:14 a.m. PST |
Before 1808 all the battalions carried an Eagle. After that, as you say, only the 1st battalion did so. Therefore, it's important to decide in which year your battalion is marching. The other (non-Eagle) battalions carried a plain flag called a fanion. It was white for the 2nd battalion, red for the 3rd, blue for the 4th, green for the 5th, yellow for the 6th and violet for the 7th. (The battalions per regiment increased as the Empire went on.) They were meant to be plain with a simple spear point but many regiments put words and designs on them. In the early years battalions could use line and column. As the years went on and quality declined, more and more reliance was put in columns. The size of your battalions depends on the rules you use. For mine, that means 1 figure = 20 men which gives a strong battalion of about 36 men. The number of supernumenaries is up to you and what looks good. Two officers, a drummer and an eagle-bearer are probably enough. Personally I have two dismounted officers, two drummers and a mounted CO. If they are available I sprinkle in some sergeants too. Again it depends on which year you are in for buying more. If post-1812 then get the Perrys. If pre-1812 then go for Victrix, but be aware that the latter do not have many marching figures per box. Your painted figure looks good but it looks like you have a fusilier head on a grenadier/voltigeur body hence the fringed epaulettes you've painted white. Check your sources, only grenadiers and voltigeurs had fringed epaulettes in red and green/yellow. Hope that helps. |
Musketier | 25 Feb 2015 7:49 a.m. PST |
Indeed, excellent brushwork which the mobile pic doesn't fully do justice to. Just to expand on Artilleryman's comments, the Warlord figures represent the pre-1812 uniforms. Their website gives some indication on how things are meant to go together: fringed epaulettes with bearskins or shakos with tall plumes for the flank companies, the other headgear on the bodies with plain shoulder straps for the centre companies. link Not sure I understand your question about formations. Did you intend to put all the figures on one base? The number 32 is a little odd, 24 or 36 are more usual. As others have said it all depends on the rules you intend to use: Some even have four bases of four figures per battalion, so your box could give you a two-battalion regiment. Assuming you want your "guide" figure to join the ranks, the easiest way to integrate it would seem to be repainting the epaulettes and shako pompom in green, for one of the voltigeurs. Anything else would require plastic surgery (not that that is particularly difficult or fragile with plastic figures). Welcome to the madhouse! |
Musketier | 25 Feb 2015 7:54 a.m. PST |
PS Looking closely at the box artwork, you will see that the cuff flaps with the buttons are in fact dark blue, being originally an extension of the sleeve. |
kosarev | 26 Feb 2015 4:25 a.m. PST |
I should have said that I don't intend to play with them. My idea is to have them on display or gift them to my dad (he loves miniatures, but prefers semiflats). So yes, they will all be based together. @Artilleryman I have removed the epaulettes with a modelling knife and some greenstuff. Thanks for your suggestions. On paper I would like to represent a line regiment during the 5th coalition. I thought about the 57th. Would gladly accept recommendations. Not later because I don't like greatcoats. @Musketier Good eye! I've fixed that. I've also noticed that according to the box the escarapel on the hat is blue,white,red (from outside to inside) while I had painted it white,red,blue. Although in some books I've seen red,white,blue. My idea is to build a regiment, with 6 battalions. 4 of them of line infantry, plus a grenadier and voltigeur battalion. Each of them on a separate base numbering 30something figures.
If I choose to base them on line formation (I think it looks better on the eye) 3 line deep, where should the officers go? And any suggestion of extra officers or NCO needed for this formation to look good? |
Musketier | 26 Feb 2015 8:25 a.m. PST |
Ah OK, a display unit. Your questions become much clearer now. For that purpose I'd say the line does indeed look best – see the pics on the Warlord website – and is also easier to set up in a shelf or cabinet. Just to clarify the terminology: A regiment was an administrative unit, which in the French army had between two and six or seven battalions. These battalions were the tactical units, not necessarily all serving together in the same theatre. Grenadiers and voltigeurs would be present in each battalion, as its flank companies, not forming battalions of their own: From 1808 each battalion indeed had four centre companies, one of grenadiers and one of voltigeurs. Given the figures' uniforms, your unit would then reflect the period from 1808 to 1812 – i.e. the Peninsular War or the 1809 campaign against Austria. So your display unit as described would be one battalion at about 1:3 numerical ratio, in six companies – and should be a grand sight indeed! This website will give you an idea of the way companies and battalions drew up in line: link Note that the officers are not in the centre, as often depicted in wargames units, but on the flanks of their companies, 'framing' their men – hence the french term "cadres". The drawings also indicate the place of the NCOs, if you want to go to that level of detail. Sergeants at least (not sure about corporals) would carry their musket in the right arm , like the fellow on the right in this picture:
Converting this pose from the Warlord figures may be difficult, perhaps the Victrix set may come in handy here. Their Old Guard set even includes a "guide général" sergeant with a little flag on his musket – in case you would consider indulging in some kit-bashing. Will look up the 57th later – some regiments had interesting uniform variations for their drummers and sappers. |
Musketier | 26 Feb 2015 2:21 p.m. PST |
Ah yes, the 57th with its 'tête de colonne' in sky blue facings laced orange, as illustrated in the relevant Osprey booklet. Of course you could go even more colourful and represent the 30th, with drummers in red coats faced blue, or the 42nd where they had yellow coats with sky-blue facings and gold lace – that colonel must have had deep pockets! Incidentally, while the bulk of the Perry range is in the later uniform, they have branched out into the earlier period. Their pre-1812 packs are in campaign dress, wearing baggy trousers rather than gaiters, but packs FN 156 and 157 could perhaps provide some officer variants at least. For the NCOs, Eagle guards and drummers, you'd have to alter the legwear. One last point: I would think it unlikely that within the same company, some grenadiers would wear shakos and others the bearskin, as illustrated on the Warlord site. All in either one or the other seems safer. |
kosarev | 23 Mar 2015 5:41 a.m. PST |
So the fusiliers are mostly done. imgur.com/zUguPCJ Only thing missing are the guns. I have no idea how to paint them. Mostly wood, mostly metal? Haven't found good photos of French miniatures showing closeups of the guns. And now would be time to paint the officers. I have seen on Perry's website this guys : link So, x being a fusilier, s a sergeant, d a drummer, c captain I have thought of this disposition: S x x x x x x x x x c X x x x x x x x x x d S x x x x x x x x x s More or less according to what I saw here:
Suggestions? |
Musketier | 23 Mar 2015 2:42 p.m. PST |
Good job on the fusiliers! The muskets (guns weigh a ton and have wheels) I usually paint dark brown, then drybrush the metal bits with steel. The line-up in your illustration is of an individual company on parade; when forming up as a whole battalion, the drummers would all gather behind the line. For all those "specialist" figures, remember that your numerical scale is 1:3 so, with three officers and four sergeants per company, you should only have one figure of each – unless of course you deliberately want to distort that ratio to illustrate the cadres' position? The 'extra' sergeants neatly work out as one sergeant-major and the two guides généraux with their marker flags. |
kosarev | 24 Mar 2015 12:19 p.m. PST |
I have seen that all the drummers march together as a band of sorts , but I don't want to put them on a separate base, so a drummer per company it is. I took a look at the osprey booklet you said and luckily the drummer pictured there is of the 57th, although a grenadier. So good reference. I said sergeant, but I think corporals are the ones I thought of putting on the left of the line, and a sergeant on the right with a penon (the one on the perry link I gave would work?). Would look nice that way? Although I might be calling the directions on the line the other way around. Sergeant with drummer behind and captain behind, and on the other end 2 corporals. |
julianmizzi | 24 Mar 2015 3:25 p.m. PST |
Pic of the 57th Drummer [URL=http://s251.photobucket.com/user/julianmizzi/media/IMG_0837.jpg.html]
[/URL] |
kosarev | 27 Mar 2015 4:23 a.m. PST |
I think I'm not goIng to use the NCOs. I would have to fix their legs with greenstuff to make them wear gaiters. So just a drummer and captain for the company. One being the other on one end of the line or both on the first line at one end? |
kosarev | 28 Apr 2015 3:55 p.m. PST |
imgur.com/A2jlCrY So they are almost finished. Just the base decoration missing. Tips there? I have already glued sand, but I don't know if I should paint it or not, and what grass to use. |
kosarev | 18 May 2015 2:41 p.m. PST |
imgur.com/UsjJtk3 So I finished my first company! Took some time. Basing is booooring so I got distracted by other minis I had laying around. Now its time for another company. Anyone knows of any other brand that produces miniatures with the same uniform? Just to add some variety. 180 equal warlord French's might be too much. |
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