"Got burned on my very first Kickstarter pledge" Topic

I stayed away from Kickstarter because of some of the horror stories I heard. Then last year a game came along I had to back: a deck-building dinosaur card game called Apex. I pledged at one of the lower tiers, just enough to get me 1 copy of the game and the Kickstarter exclusives.

Well, nearly a year later the game's creator came forward saying he vastly underestimated the cost of production and shipping. The game was eventually produced, but the guy didn't have enough money to send copies to Kickstarter backers all at once. So he decided to send it out in phases over time, with the top tier getting the first copies, the second tier a few months after that, and so on. Finally you got to my tier, which had no firm date for when the game would ship.

However, the guy did offer to move up anyone to the front of the pack if they paid him an extra $15 USD to cover shipping, which was supposed to have been covered in the original pledge. I grumbled and paid him $15. USD But just recently, backers found out copies of the game had been shipped to at least one store and had already sold out -- meaning people who didn't back the project will likely get the game before its backers.

To be fair, the game's creator is remaining responsive in the project's comments, and he promises the Kickstarter backers will get exclusives the retail version doesn't have. But still -- I had no guarantee I would even get a copy, given his crazy shipping schedule. And he's already talking up his next Kickstarter campaign: a Dino Riders-like miniatures game called Promethean Wars. I posted about that project previously, and some of you warned me about jumping into supporting it given the problems with Apex. Now I'm so torn… I want those dinosaur miniatures… but this guy royally screwed up on a much smaller project than he is proposing now…

You haven't really been burned, have you? Sounds like you will get your stuff.

Kickstarter is not an online store, and your tale sounds like many – especially first time KS projects. I bet the dino riding second round will be much easier as the guy has learned much about business. Although … producing cards is very different from producing miniatures!

All kinds of things can come up.

Incidentally – I don't use KS; too afraid to encounter what you just did!

Yep. Stay away. I've been very lucky. Every project I've backed came through for the most part. Its a hard business school like problem to plan these kickstarters. The failure rate is comprable to the failure rate of normal startups however (about 30% in the first year).

On the one hand, if the project runs into trouble, you want the company to engage retail to get the cash flowing. No cash means no hope.

You're right: "burn" is too strong a word. "Disappointed" is more like it.

Anyway, just wanted to bounce that rant off a few people so they can tell me if I'm overracting or not. It's not like the guy took the money and ran (unlike a lot of video game kickstarters, from what I understand).

And I have made kickstarted pledges since that one. However, they have all been with companies that have track records. Although, to date, I haven't received a single thing I pledged for. Kickstarters take a lot of time, apparently.

I have learned my lesson. I have backed four, and only one (Bombshell's Counterblast) has produced on time and in full.

One was almost 2 years late.

Another was very late, and then shipped only half of the order, and the second half was many months later.

The last one is late, has not delivered, and the vendors are playing hide and seek.

No more for me.

As long as you get your promised product (despite overly long waits) you haven't been burned. If your product never materializes, then you've been burned.

Burned is when they disappear with your money, as in Up Front. Asking for an extra $15 USD and getting the game a year late is not that bad.

KS is what it is. People tell you when they're doing things for the first time, it's way down at the bottom under "Risks". If you want to wait and get the product retail, you should definitely do that, don't be lured in by exclusives if you don't like the overall KS experience.

A lot of people, including me, like the KS experience. You get to help make it a reality, you get to interact with the designers, you get previews, and I like helping promote a game I like. That said, I don't back many – it's genuinely hard to tell if you're going to like a game, and KS is not a bargain.

There's also room to feel sympathy for the creators: how would you feel if you promised a few hundred people a board game, you know the clock is ticking, and you discover that it's hundreds of hours of work and it turns out you're going to have only a couple hundred dollars in your pocket when you're done? Or nothing? Or you're going to lose a thousand? It cannot be fun to write the emails that say "remember last month when I told you you'd have it this month? turns out…" It's no fun to be in over your head.

I've run two kickstarters for other people's books, and you do end up with an intense awareness that a bunch of people have given you money and are looking at their mailboxes and wondering what's up. The second one everything went well, but with the first one the printers let us down big time, repeatedly saying the books were in the mail when they weren't printed yet. It was not a good feeling.

Late means nothing, really, and I have never understood the nerd rage (and I mean in general, NOT anybody talking here) about retail getting stuff before Kickstarter backers. It's simply not worth the energy of getting upset. It's toys and games we're talking about here, not food and shelter.

As long as I get what I paid for (and so far I have) I am happy.

Through the years I have "invested" some of my hard earned cash in the real world --- one was in a pharmaceutical start up called Veos prior to the IPO --in one fell swoop I lost $50,000 USD -- in the long run however I have done very well -- "win most, lose some".
I fail to see the difference with the kickstarter complaints? Are you fully aware of the transaction you are engaging in?
Regards
Russ Dunaway

It stinks that the game has been sent to retail already, but that may have been his solution for getting enough $ to continue to mail out the backer's games.

I would agree with others that you have been "inconvenienced rather than "burned".

As for supporting the new one, it's totally up to you. I'd be skeptical, but it's your $. USD

I have invested in 29 Kickstarter, 2 Indiegogo projects. Of those 2 haven't delivered. One is the now infamous Up Front project that I dived into without doing my usual due diligence. The second just has not shipped. Everything is in hand and has been in the creator's hands since December but he just won't ship anything out.
While I'm not happy about the two that I have "missed" on I think that the track record overall has been pretty good. Now a couple of those products were not quite what I was hoping for but that happens to us when ordering online as well. For the most part I have been very happy and while I'm not committing money at the same rate that I was I still find neat projects to get involved with and others that I wish I had been involved with. A little due diligence can save you a lot of pain and aggravation.

While the game company does not sound very efficient, they do seem to want to honor there agreements.

Quite frankly, most kickstarter projects are delivered late…to varying degrees of course. Yours seems to be on the higher end of late but sit back. You'll get your stuff.

I think there's a lot of inexperience behind these things -- a work colleague has a sideline in electronics kickstarters.
But he's got a process; he designs the project, launches it, enough people back it, he does a proper PCB & enclosure design, buys components, has an outsourced place assemble it all and then it goes off to a warehouse which does outsourced fulfilment.

His biggest problems seems to be coping with parcel companies that can't understand that he won't personally be giving them the parcels for dispatch.

Frankly ACTUAL real games companies with actual full time employees seem to have enough trouble filling orders for products they ostensibly already make. Think about what's happened over the years with places like BTD or Foundry or any one of a dozen dozen other places. Now we're expecting random people to do it?

My numbers are similar to Heisler's. Two out of 28, for all of $45 USD, have gone completely bad. Another is heading into "flakey artist" territory. Five others remain outstanding, but three of those are close and a fourth not far behind.

They asked for an extra $15 USD and STILL shipped it to stores first and people are defending it as not getting burned…

Shakes head and walks away

And he's already talking up his next Kickstarter campaign: a Dino Riders-like miniatures game called Promethean Wars. I posted about that project previously, and some of you warned me about jumping into supporting it given the problems with Apex. Now I'm so torn… I want those dinosaur miniatures… but this guy royally screwed up on a much smaller project than he is proposing now…

Fool me once… shame on you. Fool me twice… shame on me.

No. Burned is by the likes of Tony Reidy who took $46 USDK and did nothing towards the project- pure and simple scam. Sounds like this guy got his numbers wrong and is raising capitol from retail sales to complete his KS. Red Box did the same thing when he got his sums wrong on his first KS.
You have to remember with KS you are often giving rank amateurs a chance to break into the industry. Some have done their homework, some haven't, you takes your chance.

so far, every KS I've backed has had a good return (Roll20, 2 Reaper Bones, Bunch of Balloons, Dungeon a Day)add one just ended (Conan). I have more "invested" in unpainted lead and games that have been played 1-2 times than I will "lose" on KS. KS money is part of my Annual Game budget. I back the things that I think will be successful or nice to have. In the Roll20 instance I continue to back them at the Mentor level (90% of my current gaming is online RPGS).

As so many have said, KS is NOT a pre-order system. You are putting up working Capital for them to get started. They just tell you what your immediate return is likely to be.

I've backed fifteen KS's. Aside from a couple that are imminent, and a couple too early to make any judgements, only one has run radically over schedule.

But it's beyond his control, and he is working to get me the remainder of my goods, and I survive til then.

I have certainly not been "put off" by crowdfunding. Quite the opposite, really.

Thanks for the advice everyone. Like I said, I wanted to know if I was overreacting, and it sounds like I am. I guess the thing that set me off was hearing that some retail copies had been sold--after I paid extra money to have mine delivered. But in the grand scheme of things it is a pretty tiny investment.

I don't think you are over reacting at all. If anything your just learning what a lot of us are realising now.

I tend to only back projects these days for niche items that won't see retail at my flgs. The Vanir dropship project is a good example of that. Wanted to go in deep on Ogre back when. Pretty happy I didn't as I picked it up retail for a lot less than what it cost to pledge.

My Robotech tactics pledge mirrors your experience. It's been available retail in Australia since December and I'm still waiting for my pledge to be delivered.

I would be rather annoyed if your situation happened to me. Especially paying extra for shipping and still waiting…

So far I have only had one KS go south under me permanently. Most have been very late in delivery, but have kept open updates and come through.

you all need to remember KS is an investment not a retail sale, you can get anything from full expected return with free stuff down to nothing. (not even an email explaining how the money was mismanaged or a 3rd party company messed up or the ship sank and the insurance will not cover replacing the lost stuff) Really anything could happen…………….

also nothing in any KS investment states the backers will get their dividend/free stuff before the product goes on sale to the public.

I have 1 KS well over a year late all because of 3rd party companies sitting on the order.

I've backed over 20, and almost all of them were/are late. Often the ones with lots of extras are the ones in for the most trouble, and also miscalculating shipping costs is a common issue that gets worse the longer a project takes due to the risk of rates going up. If you want a product where all the kinks are worked out, wait for retail…otherwise, be aware that it may be a bumpy road, as you are getting a front row seat to the issues that go on behind the curtain. I've had a generally positive experience, but it is completely buyer beware.

Honestly kickstarter is a risk and you need to recognise that up front. I can see you are upset but it is the nature of it.

Some kickstarters are by established companies that are using it to ease cash flow and check out the potential market. If there is no actual market for female goblin samurai ninja miniatures then the kickstarter fails and customers don't end up out of pocket.

If this is someone's first try and the kickstarter looks like an incredible bargain …. there is a real risk they will fail and you lose your money. If they do succeed it will probably take a long time before you get your stuff. If they are massively oversubscribed then it's going to take even longer. It seems quite common for poorly planned kickstarters to go to retail to raise cash to fulfil their kickstarter obligations

Having said that I have only backed one, they didn't make their goal and sold their work so far to another company. Got my money back no fuss no trouble, but now I REALLY want plastic Landsknect !!

John

You know as an econ student, I actually did a project on KS games to see if there was any relationship between their funding and how many months they are past their original estimate release date

funny enough most of my variables were significant at the 5%, and some at the 1%, level

Though I suppose it wasnt a super serious project so I probably have lots of error 'n stuff.

but yea, KS and International shipping is a huge pain in the buttocks. Honestly I think more KS should go "yea….we want at least $15 USD-25 for shipping."

Overall I've put over $2 USDk into various Kickstarter projects: three music projects, a book, a wallet, three card games, one computer game (which I only supported for a few of the physical rewards) and eight board/miniature games; probably closer to 2.5k once I've added extras to some of the pledges.

Apart from the book, two of the music ones (which were being run by fairly experienced industry professionals) and the wallet, everything has run way over schedule.

Knowing how, when you're a small company, just one thing being late can set an entire project back by months (I've recently finished one project that is releasing three months behind schedule because, among other things, someone at a partner company was ill) means I'm happy to wait it out when some of these big projects, with lots of elements to juggle, don't get anywhere near their release target.

While I don't exactly write off the money I pay for a KS project, once it's paid and I've suffered a few weeks of being short of cash afterwards, I pretty much forget about the project, apart from the occasional glance at the updates. When it finally delivers, it's usually a great surprise and it feels like free stuff! A couple of weeks back, I received huge parcels for Wrath of Kings and Cthulhu Wars on the same day. It was like a mini-Christmas!

Want to talk about getting burned? I plunked down $300 USD for the Makibox KS and was supposed to receive it in October 2013. The CEO of the project has disappeared and Paypal won't refund my money, so I bit that one hard.

I've gotten all but two KS I pledged for. There's a good chance I will get the two role-playing KS I just pledged on before I receive my two outstanding miniatures ones.

Hello, i wanted to say from the point of view of a proyect designer, that yes, as GUINNY said, one delay in a part of the process can delay ALL, like happened to me in my first kickstarter, that delayed me 2 month and half (small KS) and i am shipping oout thel ast packages during this weeks.

Also, the miscalculation is a reallity for first time creators, i had a 2K deficit that i had to put from my empty pocket due to shippins and production small errors, and the worse part is that one month ago all postal service prices went up a 20%, i did however not ask extra money nor nothign and i am even giving free bits and minis as compesation for the delay.

Didnt happened in my case, but i do not find bad selling at retail, as a mean to get fund to compesate the bad calculation, i could get the money from a friend (now he is a investor haha).

I am going to make my second campaign soon, much better calculated, less freebies (in the overall, they cost you a lot if you give too many) and with a better time estimation, thanks to the experience of my first KS.

I have backed 10 projects in all. Two I did without a reward, but both have delivered. One is still running, one was very late, a couple are still pending, and only one has gipped me, but that was for only $25. USD

What I have learned is to avoid massively over subscribed ones as they are to be expected to be very late and that takes quite a bit of shine off the whole game.

I also won't ever bid more than I can afford 'this week' again. I out far too much into the late one and it damaged what else I could do. The late LATE arrival means I now have a gigantic pile of stuff that interest has waned in and I am seriously looking at selling most of it unopened.

i just got my prize from the crackerjack box, the game victory in europe which i backed and it arrived!!!

i'm happy as a clam at high tide

i backed it because it was done by an established company with a good rep. i know kickstarter is suppooooosed to be a way to fund startups, but i don't really want to do that. let banks do that, lol….

Want to talk about getting burned? I plunked down $300 USD USD for the Makibox KS and was supposed to receive it in October 2013. The CEO of the project has disappeared and Paypal won't refund my money, so I bit that one hard

Ouch. I simply can't understand why Kickstarter shouldn't be somewhat liable. KS got paid on this deal. We should be able to at least recover that portion of the money.

I got burned for 60.00 and I'll never do another Kickstarter. If you don't have product in hand I'm simply not interested.

ITS NOT A PURCHASE ---- IT'S AN INVESTMENT IN THE HOPES OF A RETURN --??????? As I asked in my earlier post -- are you fully aware of the type of transaction you are engaging in?
Regards
Russ Dunaway (hobby legend)