"Generic Sengoku army" Topic

This will be my billionth attempt at this period, I love it but never get past a dozen or so figures.

What would a generic Sengoku army look like, I'm doing Takeda,

I'm thinking Ashigaru vs Samurai, yari vs bow vs teppo. foot vs mounted ect.

I suggest you check out Brian Bradford's "Killer Katanas". In addition to providing a period specific set of rules, the author breaks down, in detail, the composition of various samurai clans.

Evalerio has posted a couple illustrations here on TMP that he's made based on the Takeda Screen: TMP link

A typical ashigaru teppo-tai has 3 gunners, 2 bowmen, with a Samurai in charge on horseback. The samurai has 1-2 retainers on foot.

a group of those teppo-tai is called a teppo-gumi, and has a command unit of a mounted samurai with 2 retainers on foot, plus a set of banner-bearers.

I'll let you look at the other thread to see the different units.

And I second the idea of getting Killer Katanas. Even if you don't play the rules, they're worth it for the research alone.

Killer Katanas seems rather good looking through it, but since you have trouble with larger numbers getting finished, well, there are other options for going at smaller scales.

Ronin is good for a handful of figures. Bushido might also be a workable option.

If you add magnets to the bases, you can also stack the ronin circle bases ontop of the square ones most larger force size ones use.

Kensei also seems like a rather good one

Lion, thanks, thats info I did not know.

But at the scale I'm doing, that gets to detailed.

I'm looking for more gamey version, so % in units, how many yari Ashiguru units per semurai unit ect.

Gunfreak: it varies by area, and even more by time. In general, you go from smaller armies of samurai supported by ashigaru levies at the start of the period, to larger armies of semi-professional ashigaru forming a large part of the armies. I can check in my books when I'm home, but I think that you'd have a pretty believable late sengoku army if you have roughly two ashigaru units per samurai unit.

A typical ashigaru teppo-tai has 3 gunners, 2 bowmen, with a Samurai in charge on horseback. The samurai has 1-2 retainers on foot.

a group of those teppo-tai is called a teppo-gumi, and has a command unit of a mounted samurai with 2 retainers on foot, plus a set of banner-bearers.

That assumes the Takeda Screen is an accurate representation of the battle line and that only Samurai acted as "gashira" or squad leaders. My calculation shows that 55 mounted Samurai are needed to oversee a little over 250 ashigaru archers and arqubusiers in the 54 Teppo Tai shown on the screen. Isn't that a lot of Samurai just for supervision?

In a defensive fight, the ashigaru would receive the enemy charge. The samurai behind the ashigaru would steady the line. The mounted samurai are not there just to supervise, they are combat troops.

If a counterattack is needed, the samurai would charge out from behind and sweep around the flanks in a pincer attack, to repel an attack or pursue for a bit before withdrawing behind the ashigaru battle line. This is what the Takeda did to hold the line at 4th Kawanakajima against the rotating attacks of the Uesugi.

Whenever a mounted samurai leaves his ashigaru unit, command is delegated to the most senior foot samurai OR ashigaru to become squad leader. Some of the Takeda 24 Generals were considered superb infantry commanders.

Behind the ashigaru battle line are large numbers of samurai on foot to fight alongside the ashigaru. These are actually dismounted samurai. Behind these foot samurai are their horses held by grooms. If the defense become offense, these samurai would remount and engage in a large cavalry battle. In that instant each remounted samurai would have at least an ashigaru and a groom to follow him in battle.

Evalerio, that's very cool info. Not sure how to game it tho, i guess you could put mounted samurai as a leader on an ashiagru base, but that would just be for show.

Wargaming us easier with distinct unit types.

Also the ashiagru following the mounted samurai, would he ve on foot?

Yes, ashigaru would follow the mounted samurai on foot. The combination of small horses and heavy armour meant that the horses were not that extremely fast. A mounted samurai charge would look a little bit different than what most people imagine it, not like a Napoleonic era charge with huge bred warhorses.

It's a bit easier to represent on the table if you have large "diorama" style bases, like for small scale miniatures. Sengoku formations just didn't function like Napoleonic era armies, which is generally easier to represent with miniatures.

I think I can fit some Ashigaru on the cav bases even in 28mm.

Also would a bannerman by running on foot among the mounted samurai?

That assumes the Takeda Screen is an accurate representation of the battle line and that only Samurai acted as "gashira" or squad leaders.

It does, but it seems to be the case that samurai were squad leaders. Even in the current JSDF, a lance-corporal or corporal is considered far above the men he supervises.

My calculation shows that 55 mounted Samurai are needed to oversee a little over 250 ashigaru archers and arqubusiers in the 54 Teppo Tai shown on the screen. Isn't that a lot of Samurai just for supervision?

If it was possible for ashigaru to lead others, then you wouldn't need as many samurai. But even a modern-day US Army squad has 3 non-commissioned officers for 9 men. Two corporals and a sergeant.

So that number of leaders is actually a bit low for the number of men!

Also would a bannerman by running on foot among the mounted samurai?

Yes, the bannermen were expected to keep up with "their" samurai. Carrying the banner is a great honor, so the samurai would generally not ride faster than the ashigaru (literally "light feet") could run.

Would a bannerman by running on foot among the mounted samurai?

In the just ended Taiga drama 'Gunshi Kanbe', a scene of Akechi Mitsuhide on his way to reinforce Hideyoshi, then turns around to talk to his men:

An ashigaru holding his uma-jirushi walks besides Mitsuhide's horse. When Mitsuhide wheels about to face his army, the standard-bearer keeps up and turns to face the army. As Mitsuhide speaks to his men aloud, the standard-bearer raises the uma-jirushi up high. Mitsuhide gives the order to attack Oda Nobunaga and rides off to lead the army back.

The standard-bearer runs alongside, managing to keep up with Mitsuhide's horse. Uphill, through the trees… He's just an actor, but imagine a real-life Sengoku period standard-bearer.

In another scene showing combat between mounted samurai commanders. A Kuroda mounted commander had to contend with the supporting infantry of the mounted Otomo commander. The Otomo commander throws his yari at his own infantry and tells them to back off, as this was now a duel. Supporting infantry then stand down as the two commanders dismount to continue the fight on foot.

Thanks for the input, gents. A good discussion. A few comments, if I may:

In a defensive fight, the ashigaru would receive the enemy charge. The samurai behind the ashigaru would steady the line. The mounted samurai are not there just to supervise, they are combat troops.

If a counterattack is needed, the samurai would charge out from behind and sweep around the flanks in a pincer attack, to repel an attack or pursue for a bit before withdrawing behind the ashigaru battle line. This is what the Takeda did to hold the line at 4th Kawanakajima against the rotating attacks of the Uesugi.

Granted. A good example is the Oda Nobunaga firing line at the barricades at Nagashino. Present calculations based on the distance charged and the speed of charging Japanese horses (about 40 kph), indicate that 3 or possibly 4 volleys were fired at the Takeda cavalry. Even Nobunaga couldn't be sure how effective this series of volleys could be and he concentrated Yari equipped ashigaru and many Samurai to bolster his 3,000 Teppo troops. It seems they weren't needed, as very few of the Takeda reached the barricades, and those that did were guided down gaps in the barricades that opened into "killing zones".

My question to ElValerio is can we assume as time goes on and more ashigaru are employed in Japanese armies, would the gashira be made up more of ashigaru, freeing up Samurai for other tasks?

If it was possible for ashigaru to lead others, then you wouldn't need as many samurai. But even a modern-day US Army squad has 3 non-commissioned officers for 9 men. Two corporals and a sergeant.

So that number of leaders is actually a bit low for the number of men!

But they did lead. Illustrations from the Zohyo Monogatari clearly show ashigaru Yumi Ko Gashira and Teppo Ko Gashira. They were in charge of handing out arrows and powder and bullets and handing out "rain boxes" to keep the powder dry.

I think the screens indicate some artistic license. I would guess that more ashigaru were gashira than indicated in the screens. Why illustrate a lowly ashigaru, when you can have a Samurai instead? The screens indicating the battle of Nagashino incorrectly show Takeda Samurai leaders charging the barricades, that were known to be leading troops in other parts of the battle.

Also, with all due respect, I don't think an NCO in a modern army is an appropriate analogy to a Samurai in a Medieval Japanese army. A better analogy would be to a Knight in an European Medieval army or an Eagle or Jaguar Warrior in a Renaissance era Aztec army.

My point is that you have a 5 to 1 ratio of Teppo and Yumi equipped ashigaru to Samurai overseers. Sure, as ElValerio says, these Samurai would charge through their troops for the hand to hand fighting and the missile troops were then led my high ranking Asigaru acting as proxy gashira. But if they were effective in this position wouldn't it make sense to permanently employ them in this position? Especially once they were on their way to being professional soldiers after Hideyoshi's Seperation Edict.

can we assume as time goes on and more ashigaru are employed in Japanese armies, would the gashira be made up more of ashigaru, freeing up Samurai for other tasks?

Yes, these ashigaru gashira would become permanent low-ranking samurai under Hideyoshi. But, instead of freeing up samurai for other tasks, the trend was to increase the size and number of ashigaru squads to be placed under those same samurai commanders.

One of Takeda Shingen's generals was known for his ability to lead up to 75 ashigaru.

The majority of the Takeda battles were sieges of mountaintop fortresses, employing infantry assaults led by dismounted samurai.

Many in the vanguard of the Tokugawa, the Ii Red Devils, were former Takeda. They numbered from just 20 to 30 horsemen. It was the over 200 infantry they led into battle that made the difference.

Yes, these ashigaru gashira would become permanent low-ranking samurai under Hideyoshi. But, instead of freeing up samurai for other tasks, the trend was to increase the size and number of ashigaru squads to be placed under those same samurai commanders.

I'm not talking about a commander, I'm talking about a horse mounted Samurai who supervised a Teppo-Tai of only 5 ashigaru. Surely having an ashigaru as the Teppo Ko Gashira is a better use of manpower.

With the increase of firearms and ashigaru armies, mounted samurai often had a different role on the battlefield.

Placing a mounted samurai in command of larger numbers of ashigaru squads was the trend. Instead of one 5-man squad, the mounted samurai could command 5 or more squads. Each squad with an ashigaru ko gashira, making each squad independent and self-sufficient if needed, or making each squad able to coordinate with other squads when needed. A mounted samurai could now be expected to do more on the battlefield, as they are given command of larger groups of infantrymen.

In 'Gunshi Kanbe' Kanbe asked one of his generals to intercept an enemy army. He asked his general if 3,000 ashigaru will be enough for the job.

In many instances, squads of ashigaru can be hastily assembled in large numbers and expected to perform well, as each squad has a permanent ashigaru ko gashira.

In a screen in the Tokugawa Collection there is a scene of a mounted Tsukaiban detaching a Teppo squad from the main battle line and leading them to another part of the battlefield. An example of a mounted samurai picking out a squad of ashigaru at random and expecting them to perform well on their own as that squad has a ko gashira among them.

I would suggest looking at this from a different point of view

What rules do you want to run ?

Rulesets will have an order of battle or group composition method that you need to follow – and this will tell you what figures you will need

I recommend skirmish type rules for this era – basing figures individually allows many different rulesets to be played

Take a look at Ronin – simple rules and relatively inexpensive (I don't have Killer Katanas but have heard several people say it is worth the money for the research material alone). This will then give you a small group of 5-8 models. You could run Samurai vs Ashigaru using this set of rules.

Try making your focus the easiest way to get to the wargame table.

Good luck

John

Thanks, ElValerio. Appreciate your comments.

I'd take jwebster's advice regarding going with whatever guidelines your rule set uses.
Immnit evwn set in a rule set yet(Likely War and Conquest) but I'll scatter some samurai in the ashigaru units for good measure.