"Looking for help with pre-radar navy + airpower" Topic
14 Posts
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DyeHard | 17 Feb 2015 5:01 p.m. PST |
I know very little about sea or air power, but I am looking for rules and info for hypothetical combined air and ship battles in the era before RADAR was in use. Ideally, the era 1922-38. (But WWI if any would be good). Including such odd things as the airships, like the USS Akron ZRS-4, Biplanes needing scouts to find targets, Seaplane tenders, spotting with blimps, Balloon ships. It almost seems like it would need to be a three scales, map movement of fleets, ship battle time scale, and air combat time scale. I am hoping for somewhat realistic rules, but as this is all in the "What-If" world, even Pulp type rules might work. Suggestions for miniature lines would also be very helpful. Thank you for any help you can provide. |
Bunkermeister | 17 Feb 2015 5:53 p.m. PST |
1/2400 scale ships are available from Panzershiffes, GHQ, Superior, and Valley Forge and others. General Quarters, in several editions, have most if not all of what you are looking for in terms of rules. Mike Bunkermeister Creek Bunker Talk blog |
hindsTMP | 17 Feb 2015 6:32 p.m. PST |
General Quarters is good (either GQ-1 / GQ-2 combined, or the new GQ-3). However, given your area of interest, I would also recommend that you check out the "Sudden Storm" 1938 mini-campaign rules, sold by ODGW: link. I do not own it, but I do own their "Solomons Campaign" mini-campaign rules, which use the same efficient, semi-abstract campaign system to generate miniatures battles in the campaign context. There is also a free "Cherry Tree Supplement" for "Sudden Storm" free to GQ-3 owners, with the "never were" ships from the interwar period. link WRT to miniatures, if you can handle small-scale models, I would recommend the Figurehead 1/6000 line (which gives you space for fleet battles on a typical gaming table). If you go with this scale, Scale Creep is a good place to buy, and they have images on their web site: link. Other common scales are 1/3000 (best selection for between-the-wars), and 1/2400 (less selction than either 1/6000 or 1/3000, but more detail). Example, showing painted 1/6000 WWII models, chalk wakes, and with the DDs removed from the bases.
Here's a 1/6000 County-class cruiser. Presumably, a 1930s campaign wouldn't involve camouflage.
Mark H. |
dragon6 | 17 Feb 2015 7:02 p.m. PST |
Presumably, a 1930s campaign wouldn't involve camouflage. Why? WW1 used lots of camouflage, all of those dazzle patterns. |
hindsTMP | 17 Feb 2015 7:06 p.m. PST |
Why? WW1 used lots of camouflage, all of those dazzle patterns. No offense, but this would be my preference. The typical interwar photos of course don't show camouflage, and the major warship photos of WWI don't show much camouflage either. Also the image I posted above shows HMS Berwick in one of her WWII schemes, which would be problematic to use for a late 1930s war IMHO. Of course, one can do whatever one wants, since it never happened. :-) MH |
cmdr kevin | 17 Feb 2015 8:11 p.m. PST |
Figurehead has a lot of what if models. Look for ship codes that end in 9X for example the British G3 class 1B93 Numbers in the 90s signify incomplete construction. |
Shagnasty | 17 Feb 2015 8:20 p.m. PST |
Sudden Storm is exactly what you want but you need Gen. Quarters III to play the game. |
DyeHard | 18 Feb 2015 9:41 a.m. PST |
Thank you all for the detailed information! The Figurehead miniatures look very good for the type of games I had in mind. That they make both the Bearn and the Commandante Teste for the French is fantastic. The "Sudden Storm" set looks very interesting and that General Quarters 3rg Ed. says it covers "The navies of China, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Siam, the USSR, Spain and Sweden" is very encouraging, as I was hoping to do very hypothetical actions between odd mixed navies. Even I, with no really background in naval wargames, have heard of "General Quarters", so I assume it is widely used by sea war enthusiasts. Would there be any good sources for game convertible data on hypothetical ships, like the Italian and German aircraft carriers? |
Samsonov | 18 Feb 2015 2:08 p.m. PST |
When it comes to general quarters I've only played the great war rules (Fleet Action Imminent) but based upon that I can highly recommend them. I did buy the second world war rules and Sudden Storm recently, having looked through them but not yet played a gain they they look good, should produce an interesting campaign. So based on my limited contact I'd recommend both. |
hindsTMP | 18 Feb 2015 3:17 p.m. PST |
BTW, it is relatively easy to convert the "Solomons Campaign" mini-campaign rules (and presumably the similar "Sudden Storm" mini-campaign rules) to be used with a rule set *other than* GQ-3 (General Quarters 3). If you are new to naval gaming, you might want to start with the simpler GQ-1 (General Quarters 1). link Although many decades old, GQ-1 is more elegant than GQ-3, IMHO, and easier to modify when you have a differing historical interpretation from the Game Designer's. I myself prefer GQ-1 over GQ-3, and I own both of them. It's particularly easy to make your own SDSs for GQ-1, using the guidelines in the back of the rulebook, and a good reference book such as Conways. For example, I did this 25 years ago for my home-made Norway 1940 mini-campaign (Amiga 1000 computer and dot matrix printer…).
WRT to the minor navies you mention in your last post, if you go with 1/6000, you will need to do some creative mods to get many of those minor navy ships in 1/6000, with the exception of Netherlands and USSR. In 1/3000, on the other hand, … link. That being said, for my purposes, the 1/6000 are better. That's because I don't mind the small size, I don't mind removing the 1/6000 DDs from their bases (per my TMP post on the subject TMP link and because in general 1/6000 Figurehead ships are equivalent in detail and proportion to the typical 1/3000 model of twice the size. Note that there are Yahoo Groups for the various naval scales (1/2400, 1/3000, 1/4800, and 1/6000), with posted images of ship models. Mark H. |
blado48 | 18 Feb 2015 4:04 p.m. PST |
Check out Shapeways for additional ships, such as The Thai Navy and French colonial sloops, etc. They are available in several scales from 1:6000 and up. |
Big Red | 19 Feb 2015 9:30 a.m. PST |
hindsTMP, The link to your post on 1/6000 scale destroyers doesn't work. Would you mind re-linking? Thanks, Bill. |
hindsTMP | 19 Feb 2015 10:18 a.m. PST |
TMP link, which leads to: Procedure for removing Figurehead 1:6000 DDs from their bases. Let me know if pictures are needed; hopefully this is understandable without them: 1) Using a small pair of flush-cut rail nippers (model railroad tool; available from Micro-Mark), I clip the base from around the model hull. Don't let the nippers touch the hull during this step, which is merely intended to remove excess material to make filing-down easier. It is not intended to produce a final hull-side surface. 2) (Optional) As with all my Figurehead models, I then adjust the sheer line of the hull to approximate the desired final shape, mostly by careful bending. FYI, the sheer line is the edge of the weather deck of the hull when viewed from the side; the weather deck includes the forecastle deck at the bow, the quarterdeck at the stern, and the connecting deck amidships. Often models will be bent during the molding process, or the original master may have had an exaggerated sheer forward or aft. I may also clean up the casting and adjust the superstructure shape as desired, using small hobby files / cutters. This step needs to be performed before the bottom of the hull is filed down. 3) The resulting clipped (and adjusted) hull is then filed down to (just short of) the desired waterline using a sharp, small-to-medium-sized metal file (hardware store) clamped to my workbench. The model is held in the fingers, and moved against the clamped, stationary file. One needs file cleaners for this step. 2 kinds I use are a course one with stiff angled mild steel bristles, and a fine one with brass bristles which looks like a large toothbrush (Micro-Mark). During the filing process, I periodically place the model on a small flat surface, hold it up to eye-level, and examine it from all sides. If this is not done, the model's final waterline will be "tilted", and it will look as if it is sinking (not desirable). 4) The sides of the hull are then cleaned up using a needle file (Micro-Mark). If needed, the flare and rake of the bow (and stern) can be adjusted at this stage. Note that the lower part of the final hull shape may well be metal which was originally part of the base. FYI, flare is the outward curve of the bows of the hull when viewed in cross-section, and rake is the angle of the bow when the hull is viewed from the side. File cleaners are needed for this step also, and sometimes an old exacto-blade is needed to gently remove a stubborn piece of metal from the file. 5) The model is them brought down to the final waterline, using the same procedures as in step 3. Carefully remove any metal burr from around the bottom edge of the hull with a fingernail, or the back of an exacto blade. This relatively time-consuming procedure is why I (and possibly others) convinced Steve of Hallmark to cast the modern Figurehead DDs separately from their bases. The way to get through this is to do 1 or 2 a night, while watching TV or listing to music, and the brain on auto-pilot. They get done eventually. The few special tools mentioned above can be purchased from Micro-Mark on the Internet, and are useful for other model-making purposes. Here's a good magnifier: link. The image below shows a British "H-class" and German Type 34 "Maas class", removed from bases, but not painted:
Mark H. |
Big Red | 19 Feb 2015 12:36 p.m. PST |
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