"Free Uniform Guides" Topic

Hi

Courtesy of Google I found these webpages

link

link

link

Having done so, is there any need for a newcomer to buy a reference work ?

Good find. I'm book marking this right now.

Actually, yes, there is still reason to buy uniform reference works. First of all, the colors in the Baccus guides are not strictly accurate – they only give a hint of the color to paint your figures (for example, the Queen's Rangers were not that bright green!). Also, although the French and British are well documented and researched, there are still disagreements over some American uniforms. Guides can give you ideas or references to start doing your own research and drawing your own conclusion. You will even find works with disagreement (and valid argument) over what a particular British unit was wearing at a particular place and time (though the regimental colors may be well-known). My point is, especially for a newcomer, if you start off painting your figures correctly, you won't regret it later and feel the need to repaint your earliest figures.

Marking as well. Thank you for the links.

Thank You just getting into AWI

I've been looking for a source for French uniforms. Thank you so much for sharing.

It's a pleasure to help.

If I were you, I'd save more than a bookmark.

These look like 'orphaned' pages with no home page associated. AS such they could dissapear without warning.

It is a nice go to guide, if you don't worry about button distribution or who wore what on the 32nd of February 1778, ….. Kinda like the never ending "bricole" issue. It will do fine. Especially for 15mm,

Hi all, and thanks for all the positive comments. The real kudos should go to Bill Bramham who put all the plates together. In keeping with all of the Baccus painting guides they are what they are, and aren't meant to be the last word on the subject, more a convenient quick reference.

You are quite right in that the current links are to the old Baccus site and are likely to disappear soon, but don't worry as I'll be reinstating them on the all new version over the next couple of months.

Bacchus, a guide. For the Italo-Fraco-Austrian wars of the 1850s would be wonderful.

Whether you need additional references depends on your goal. If you are simply looking to "catch the flavor" of the AWI or are trying to get a rough idea of how certain units were supposed to have looked, then the Baccus site is fine. It is also a good fall back when you can't easily find information. I also use Mollo's Uniforms of the American Revolution for the same purpose.

As Baccus indicates though, they are not the last word on the subject. They do not necessarily reflect the latest research. Following the guides too closely may also result in units that appear more uniform in appearance than they really were. Does this bother you? If not then you probably don't need more references. If it does then you do need more.

I'm starting this period from scratch, and while I have a passing handle on the events, I have no figures, books or rules. Getting started in my books means 150 infantry and a campaign book, plus a couple of rule sets.

Things are approaching £100.00 GBP so I'm not yet ready to lay out for uniform books as well.

Well, you know, Sundance does have a point. It's all very well to shrug, be a bit sniffy about "button distribution and the 32nd of February 1778 and say "It will do fine. Especially for 15mm" but we have a choice, these days, as to how we use the web; whether we use it to share knowledge and improve our idea of authenticity, or continue to perpetuate errors that really don't need to be going the rounds anymore. Why should beginners and, God bless the mark, painters of 15mm figures accept a different standard of knowledge and accuracy. Isn't that a bit patronising?

I see similar comments that appear quite regularly on this forum- "Paint them how you like. They're your armies." I have to say I find that attitude perplexing. I guess it depends on why you want to assemble miniature armies in the first place. You could ask the same of Hollywood producers!- (if you get my drift). Bill N. has summed up the alternatives very well.

Charts like this are very attractive and beguiling, rather like rows of lead soldiers, and give confidence with their sense of consistency and order but they can give the wrong idea to the uninitiated- as, in spades, do the visually similar works published in recent years by C.E. Franklin, on British uniforms of the Napoleonic Wars and on the 7YW & AWI, whose seductive exterior gloss conceals real howlers. Sure, they are only meant to be guides but, by that token, is it is helpful to let errors pass without comment if we observe them (especially when in the latter instance people part with hard-earned cash)?

I love the Mollo/McGregor books and still leaf through them. The sense of period is fantastic. So I was a bit galled when I learned that they contain quite a few errors. They were of their era and now, we move on.

So, I'm gonna just stick my neck out and say that (a) if you're going to dip your toe into the cockpit of adapted British campaign dress worn in 1777 (aka "32nd February 1778"?) it's best to be on your mettle and anyone who is taken with the image of AWI Highland soldiers wearing either flat bonnets with green feathers emerging from, well, I'm not quite sure where, they may well find themselves doing a bit of repainting in the future.

I googled 'bricole' and got pictures of catapults.

Appropriate emoticon.

Given all the comments above, when I do start looking which books would you all suggest ?

There are a number of internet sources. My suggestion for the next step would be to do a search on "Troiani American Revolution". He may not always be right, but he has done a fair amount of research. In addition he usually does his figures in actual as opposed to official uniforms. As you define your specific area of interest you can expand your internet searches. For example there is a Battle of Camden Project cite that has some uniform information plus links to further discussions on the uniforms worn in the southern campaigns.

If you look at the Baccus site, they name certain sources they used, one of which was the Mollo book I referenced. You may be able to get some of these through local libraries. Do not overlook the texts. Deserter descriptions can also be helpful. Lefferts probably started this, but other authors report these as well.

If all other easy sources fail, you can toss a question out on this forum.

At some point you will need to put the books down and start painting. This is why you need to figure out at the beginning what your goal is. If you don't it would be easy to spend a decade on research. 42flanker and I disagree here-they are your armies and you get to decide how authentic you want to be. I have no problem with someone else putting their British grenadiers and fusiliers in bearskins, their 42nd Highlanders in kilts with broadswords, or their American continentals in official 1779 uniforms with (the ultimate heresy) Betsy Ross flags.

Absolutely. Bearskins for Fusiliers. Kilts for Highlanders. Hunting shirts for State militiamen. Gaiters for Hessians. Otherwise what's the point?

Here are the main sources I would recommend; they are not infallible, but you won't go too far wrong with them:-

Mollo/McGregor and Kemp/Almark for Crown Forces, but especially British

Chartrand (Osprey MAA) for Loyalists

von Donop website for Hesse Cassel, Claus Reiter (German-Canadian) for Brunswick

Zlatich (Osprey MAA), Katcher (an upgraded Lefferts), and Kemp/Almark for the Continental Army

Chartrand (Osprey) and various websites for French (not really that much for the Spanish)

Ok,I just got both Kemps and the Almarks Saratoga book for under 20 quid. Seems like a good start 😀

Bill, I agree entirely with your observation that "they are your armies and you get to decide how authentic you want to be."

What I don't understand- I don't think that it's a question of disagreeing- is not wanting to tell the story- which is how I see it- as accurately as possible. What has intrigued me about this period is how the historical reality differs from the sterotypes of earlier years, and what that tells us about (and allows us to understand better) how men lived, thought- and fought!

I guess it's a question of temperament.

PS re-enactors' regimental websites _can_ be a mine of information. Some of them really know their stuff and there are lots of images- although your mileage may vary. You may want to knock a few pounds for a start….

@42flanker

I agree with you – the horse may decide not to drink, but that's no reason not to provide it with water in the first place. I want my figures to be as accurate as possible but at the same time I want them to look attractive. Perhaps what Bill is referring to is the difference between "neat" campaign dress and "covered in crap" campaign dress, which doesn't always make the figures look very nice on the table.

Incidentally, do you know who commanded the 3rd Light Infantry and 3rd Grenadier battalions during the NY campaign (thinking mainly Kip's Bay through to White Plains)? I can find COs for all the other flank battalions, but not those two – I had a feeling Hope of the 44th was one of them, but I might be wrong.

Also, what happened to the 42nd's light company at this time – I know the grenadiers went into the 3rd Grenadiers to equalise them, so did the light bobs do the same?

Maximus- The 42nd Grenadiers joined the 3rd Grenadier Battalion on 8th October 1776, when the 4th Gren Bn was dissolved.

"Headquarters New York Island 8th October 1776

The Two Grenadier Companies [of the 71st) of the 4th Battalion Grenadiers being very sickly, are to join their Regiment; The 42d Gren Compy of said Battn will join the 3d Battalion Grenadiers under the commd of Major Marsh and Major Stewart."

When the 3rd Gren Bn was dissolved on March 23rd 1777 the 42nd then moved to the 2nd Grenadiers. They then moved to the 1st Gren Bn around August 1778

The Light coy of the 42nd joined the 1st Light Infantry battalion on August 6th 1776 and as far as I know remained with them for the duration,(including the period 1778-1779 when there was only a single, un-numbered, Light Infantry battalion in New York).

I'm afraid I can't find a note for the OCs of 3rd Light Infantry Bn. Someone on Revlist at Yahoo groups is bound to know, I would think. That is where I have got most of my source data from in the last few year.

That is a brilliant notion, though, paint them all in sun- and rain-faded tones of grey, umber and brown, with a liberal coating of mud -or 'crap'- from the shoes up: Job Done. An army for all seasons!

OCs 3rd Light Infantry battalion

Ask and ye shall find:

Re: [Revlist] 3rd Light Infantry Battalion, 1776

Major Thomas Musgrave [64th] and Major Thomas Dundas [65th]

Sean Joyce
22nd LI
Today at 5:28 PM

Interesting. Presumably at some point Dundas took over from Musgrave, as the latter is leading the 1st Light Infantry at Pell's Point on 18th October.

Thank you very much.
(I've been trying to get back onto RevList for several days now, and can't seem to re-activate my account – I am a long standing member on there.)

Well here's a thing. Having paused to check my own files again, looking at notes made by Paul Pace of RevList, it turns out on 14th May 1776 at 'Head Quarters Halifax' it was given out in orders that "The Commander in Chief is pleased to form the Grenadier and Light Infantry
Companies into four Battalions….

[Grenadiers SNIP]

1st Battalion of Light Infantry, composed of the following
Companies, to be Commanded by Major [Thomas] Musgrave [64th Regt.] and Major
[Thomas] Dundas [65th Regt.], viz.:
4th, 5th, 10th, 17th, 22d, 23d, 27th, 35th,38th. [9 coys]

2d Battalion of Light Infantry composed of the following Companies,
to be Commanded by Major [Hon. John] Maitland [Marines] and Major [Turner von]
Straubenzee [17th Regt.], viz.:
40th, 43d, 44th, 45th, 49th, 52d, 55th, 63d, 64th. [9 coys]"

Source: Gen. Sir William Howe‟s Orders, 1776, in "The Kemble Papers, Vol. I, 1773-1789" in Collections of the New- York Historical Society for the Year 1883, Publication Fund Series, Printed for the Society, New York, 1884, Google Books, pp. 352-353.

Any of those officer's names seem familiar?

I'm embarrassed. I thought Musgrave's name was familiar from somewhere. I guess we might have to go back and ask Sean to check his facts!

I am more familiar with Abercrombie, who was appointed to 1st LI Bn on 23rd.

Head Quarters New Rochelle 23d Oct. 1776…
Lieut Col. [Robert] Abercrombie [37th Regt.] is appointed to the Command of the 1st Battalion
Light Infantry in the Room of Lieut Col. [Thomas] Musgrave [40th Regt.], lately wounded.

Source: The Kemble Papers, Vol. I, 1773-1789 in Collections of the New-York Historical Society for the Year 1883, Publication Fund Series, Printed for the Society, New York, 1884.

Presumably Abercrombie was senior to Dundas. Even if the latter had also been promoted from Major to Lieut Col, it can only have been in the previous five months.

When they were set up, it seems all the Flank battalions had a pair of OCs, of equivalent rank, in this case Majors, though presumably one would of necessity be the senior. When and why that system was abandoned I couldn't say.

When they were set up, it seems all the Flank battalions had a pair of OCs, of equivalent rank, in this case Majors, though presumably one would of necessity be the senior. When and why that system was abandoned I couldn't say.

I would venture after the flank battalions were briefly disbanded (then hurriedly re-raised) by Clinton in 1778-79. The Caribbean expedition would have removed a lot of talented field officers, but post-1779 many officers becme disillusioned with the war and you get the flank battalions reduced to a single field officer, with the 2iC often being the senior captain. During the Napoleonic Wars, of course, all British line battalions had a Lt Col and two majors (one to command each wing) and so there was no comparable shortage.

I've always assumed the two field officers were there so that one could command each wing (or the OC the main body and the 2iC any big detachment) – but I've noticed that the Grenadier battalions invariably had a Lt Col (Meadows and Monckton – the 3rd and 4th were smaller (7 and 3 double companies respectively – hence majors more appropriate?), whereas the Lights mostly had two majors. I wonder if Leslie's fall from grace after the Haarlem Heights debacle led to Abercrombie becoming not just OC 1st Light, but also de facto brigade commander for the Lights as a whole (in the same way Moncrieffe was overall OC of the Grenadiers post-Boston)?

Another thing I've noticed is that you would occasionally get a Major "commanding" the Light Company within a line battalion, but I can't ever recall the Major being CO of a Grenadier Company – I wonder if the roles of the two companies made it more appropriate for a major to head up an advance party, but not a storming party?

All very reasonable points, Maximus, but I have to say I've no idea. After the end of the New York phase, do we ever see the Light Infantry listed in orders as a brigade? The shadowy 3rd LI Bn went off to Rhode Island at some point, didn't they, and were disbanded on their return in March 1777 when the Flank battalions were reorganised into 2 Grdrs and 2 LI Bns. Thereafter, the LI seem to have been de facto part of the C-in-C's 'Corps' troops even though, as far as I can make out, the "Reserve,' as such, was not reconstituted after Dec. 1776. Still a bit hazy on that subject. More research required.

As for dividing Flank battalions into divisions, it's something I'd like to look into as well. Evidently, it did happen. Take the the dividing of the 2nd LI Bn at Germantown, only one half of which appears to have been out in front on piquet when the Pennsylvanians erupted from the fog on the morning of the 4th, yelling "Have at the Bloodhounds" and "Avenge Wayne's Affair"- if we believe what we are told. But that was for piquet duty not deployment for battle and the other half of the battalion had been out on patrol.

We may have to wait for Mark Urban to write 'Light Bobs'…

All very reasonable points, Maximus, but I have to say I've no idea. After the end of the New York phase, do we ever see the Light Infantry listed in orders as a brigade?

No we don't do we. Possibly because it eventually becomes two very large battalions that, even when serving in the same theatre, are usually separate commands (eg advance and rear guards at Monmouth), unlike the grenadiers who always seem to serve together.

At Brandywine and Germantown, there seem to be groups of 2, 3 or 4 companies commanded bu whichever captain is the most senior, undertaking specific tactical missions. The situation on 4 October (with the 1/2 battalion on patrol) sounds like they might have been operating in two wings – then again the battalion might just have been split up into groups considered the right size for each job.

We may have to wait for Mark Urban to write 'Light Bobs'…

Given his current interests, that title is more likely to be about the 2nd Afghan War!

This looks more promising. From Revlist, (in reverse order):

Good catch Paul! Sorry about that Jack.
Sean

On Thursday, February 19, 2015 9:54 AM, "Paul Pace plpace42@… [Revlist]" <Revlist@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I found some work Steve Baule had done on the LI battalions and he cites:

THIRD BATTALION OF LIGHT INFANTRY

This battalion was initially formed from among the seven regiments (15th, 28th, 33rd, 37th, 46th, 54th, 57th) sent with General Henry Clinton in the spring of 1776 to make an attack on Charleston, SC, and assist Loyalists in North Carolina…
Major Henry Johnson (28th) Appointed battalion commander 5 August 1776. [Steve's source] Mackenzie,

Paul Pace
Late Captn, 42d Lt Infy Compy

From: "Paul Pace plpace42@… [Revlist]" <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
To: "Revlist@yahoogroups.com" <Revlist@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Revlist] 3rd Light Infantry Battalion, 1776

Sean and Jack. I'm still looking for the correct answer, but I don't think Sean is correct based on the following orders:

Head Quarters Halifax 14th May 1776…
The Commander in Chief is pleased to form the Grenadier and Light Infantry Companies into four Battalions….
1st Battalion of Light Infantry, composed of the following Companies, to be Commanded by Major [Thomas] Musgrave [64th Regt.] and Major [Thomas] Dundas [65th Regt.], viz.: 4th, 5th, 10th, 17th, 22d, 23d, 27th, 35th, 38th.

and

Head Quarters New Rochelle 23d Oct. 1776…
Lieut Col. [Robert] Abercrombie [37th Regt.] is appointed to the Command of the 1st Battalion Light Infantry in the Room of Lieut Col. [Thomas] Musgrave [40th Regt.], lately wounded.

The 3rd LI Bn was made up of companies that had been on the unsuccessful Henry Clinton expedition to Charleston, but still looking for the CO.

Paul Pace
late Captn 42d Lt Infy Compy