"Ireland's Great War" Topic
15 Posts
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Supercilius Maximus | 12 Feb 2015 9:56 a.m. PST |
A two part BBC documentary recounting how Ireland responded to the UK's involvement in WW1. Very well done, and quite a lot that will surprise you, even those with a reasonable knowledge of early 20th Century Irish history. Part 1 is available on iPlayer for another 19 days, Part 2 a little longer. link As an example of how WW1 has been airbrushed out of Irish history, only 19 men were killed in Co Sligo during the War of Independence (all but one of them by the IRA) yet over 400 Sligo men died fighting at Gallipoli and on the Western Front. |
Abwehrschlacht | 12 Feb 2015 10:10 a.m. PST |
Interesting, I shall watch this later. I lived in Ireland over ten years ago and the First Word War was still seen as a traitor's war. Things have changed a lot recently, thankfully, and the Irish seem to have come to terms with their involvement in the war. |
Pan Marek | 12 Feb 2015 10:22 a.m. PST |
A job is a job if you're poor enough. |
Abwehrschlacht | 12 Feb 2015 12:11 p.m. PST |
It wasn't just poverty that led to men volunteering (Ireland never had conscription during the First World War). |
Broglie | 12 Feb 2015 1:14 p.m. PST |
I lived in Ireland for 44 years and never heard the First War referred to as a 'traitor's war'. This is, as far as I know, new label recently attached. |
LVLAURN | 12 Feb 2015 1:17 p.m. PST |
I lived there until I was 20years old before moving to Canada, I was a huge history buff and WWI research was a passion of mine, I never heard of it referred as the Traitors War until just now. I lived in Co.Cavan. I'm going to watch this when I get home. My grandfather was in WW1 as some sort of Infantryman (He died before I was born). He survived and entered WW2 but was too old for combat so served as a cook (so my grandmother told me) so I will look into as soon as I get some time to myself later. Thanks for the link |
macconermaoile | 12 Feb 2015 2:14 p.m. PST |
My Granduncle joined for poverty/adventure reasons. He managed to survive the experience.He returned to find his native city, Limerick under marshal law. He was caught breaking curfew by the Black & Tans. He was nearly beaten to death and spent months in hospital. He then fought against the British and fought in the Civil War after that. A Conscription law was passed by the British Government but was never enacted due to resistance and threatened rebellion. Irish people do not regard those that fought as traitors. They are seen as naive to have fought at all. |
Abwehrschlacht | 12 Feb 2015 3:02 p.m. PST |
Not wanting to pass the buck, but it was an Irishman who first coined the phrase 'traitors war' for me. |
Supercilius Maximus | 13 Feb 2015 12:17 a.m. PST |
A small minority like to get in a "dig" at anyone who participated in the Empire in any way. There's a memorial arch at Stephen's Green in Dublin that commemorates men who served in the (2nd) Boer War. I've read one (and only one) on-line claim that it is referred to as "The Traitors' Gate", but never actually heard anyone call it that when I've been in Dublin (and I've lived in that area for short periods). One of my mother-in-law's cousins was a WW1 vet who got badly treated by the B&Ts (who, contrary to popular myth, were overwhelmingly men who had missed WW1 for various reasons – mainly their youth). This chap buried his uniform and medals in his back garden in disgust and joined the fight for independence – sadly the garden is now built over. In 2007, I met up with the Irish Great War Society, who were part of a multi-period "history day" at Cork City Gaol. They told me that at the start of an event, their display would be deserted, but gradually over the course of the day, more and more people would sidle up to them and mention that they had an older relative who served with this or that unit during WW1 and how could they go about finding info on them. As the day progressed at the Cork event, it was interesting to see that their stand was packed, whilst a nearby VW hippy bus selling "hardcore" IRA merchandise was completely deserted (even the owner seemed to have wandered off). Clearly there is a growing fascination with getting to know more about this period of history and the men involved; the programme made the often-overlooked point that in 1914, Nationalists were not anti-Empire or anti-Monarchist, they just wanted their own Parliament in Dublin and saw no conflict between that and serving the King. irishgreatwarsociety.com |
rogue1916 | 13 Feb 2015 3:25 a.m. PST |
My maternal grandfather fought with the "Old" IRA as a volunteer during the War of Independence 1919-21. As such our family would have a Nationalist view of our history. Imagine our surprise when recently one of my cousins while researching our family tree discovered that a maternal Grand uncle had left the family home and subsequently joined the Irish Guards in the UK. He never returned home although we believe he survived the war. Families like mine would in times gone by not acknowledge my Grand Uncle's service but nowadays this is no longer an issue. I may have not known much about my Grand uncle but I will make sure my children know all their heritage. |
Oh Bugger | 13 Feb 2015 5:46 a.m. PST |
"Nationalists were not anti-Empire or anti-Monarchist, they just wanted their own Parliament in Dublin and saw no conflict between that and serving the King." That would not be a popular view at the time. Those who followed John Redmond's view and enlisted to secure Home Rule were making a political decision about how best to secure self government for Ireland. My own wider family split on the issue but both sides were anti Empire and anti Monarchist. I was 27 when my last Grand parent died and always sufficently interested to heed what the old folk said. The popular view was as macconermaole said above those who enlisted were seen as naive to have trusted Redmonds promises. Its always worth remembering what Tom Barry said about joining the the British Army-he did it for excitment. For most though, before the Redmondite recruiting campaign, economic reasons were to the fore. It was not unusual for former members of the British Army to join the IRA and some of them rose to prominence during the War of Independence. I have never heard anyone refer to WW1 as anything but that. |
Broglie | 13 Feb 2015 11:33 a.m. PST |
The Memorial Arch in St. Stephen's Green is known as Fusilier's Arch. I have never heard it referred to as Traitor's Gate. It contains the names of Irish men who died in the Boer War. I have a relation among the names. I also have a relation named on a monument in St. Andrew's Churchyard at the other end of Grafton Street. He was in the City of Dublin Yeomanry. |
Supercilius Maximus | 13 Feb 2015 11:55 a.m. PST |
That would not be a popular view at the time. Those who followed John Redmond's view and enlisted to secure Home Rule were making a political decision about how best to secure self government for Ireland. Funnily enough, those were exactly the first two myths that the programme debunked, using contemporary documents, private and public, and previously unseen film footage. Massive crowds – both nationalist and unionist – attended recruiting meetings and parades, and turned up to wave the men off. The three historians who present the programme highlight that many men signed up for all the usual reasons and not based on their political allegiances. The "naive" label really only comes about in the 1930s; in the Free State, Remembrance Day parades only stop around 1930, due to Government intimidation. The actual response to the war at the time has been largely airbrushed out of the national psyche, in the same way (and around the same time) that the Great War started becoming a "senseless waste" in the eyes of British people (a view cleverly promoted by Lloyd George in his memoirs, in which he manipulates blame for the politicians' failure to create "a land fit for heroes" onto the generals). No offence, but I'm always wary of (a) extrapolating a general mood from one person's family who may, or may not, have been an exception at the time, and whose views may, or may not, have been retrospectively altered by the changes in what the public is told by successive regimes; and (b) purely oral testimony with no contemporary supportive evidence for their views/actions. Again, the programme points out that almost every Nationalist in Ireland at the time was a Redmondite – republicans were not just a minority, but a very tiny one (so much so, that, as a historian named Fearghal McGarry reveals from recently-released documents in the Irish Army archives, when Pearce declares a republic on the steps of the GPO, many of his men are astonished as they were unaware that the plan was to declare a totally independent republic). Old people frequently "amend" their own recollections in order to conform with subsequent revisions of history. You won't have heard other versions, simply because it was not politically correct – or physically safe – to do so until very recently. I had a great-uncle who "clearly remembered" Kitchener hanging all the servants on his estate after a theft; it never happened, but he insisted on telling everyone (especially visiting Americans) that it did. Many old people in Wales could "remember seeing" the dead bodies lying in the street after the Tonypandy Massacre (which actually consisted of a midnight brawwl between police and miners who were caught looting a chemist's shop – one man died a few days later from hitting his head on a kerbstone). As for it being "not unusual" for ex-Army people to join the IRA, Jeffrey and Bartlett in their "Military History of Ireland" make a point of saying that such men were viewed with intense suspicion and frequently rejected, in some cases actually threatened; yery few of them were allowed to join, and men like Barry who became leaders at any level, were even rarer. Do watch the programme, it's a genuine eye-opener – and I speak as someone with many, many Fenian relatives in deepest, darkest Co Kerry. |
ITALWARS | 13 Feb 2015 4:58 p.m. PST |
From abroad…i see that in another way.. which seem simply logical for me… it's a total nonsense to call "traitors" the Irish citizens who fought (and for what i understand also bravely) for the so called Empire and abroad….the matter should be totally reversed if we think in a right way…is is the "Empire" who has been a "traitor" toward the Irish….because contrary to best practices and dignitous behaviour shown toward many other peopled…the Empire did'nt grant full indipendance as a full deserved and expect gratitude to those Irish who fought for it in so many wars.. |
Supercilius Maximus | 14 Feb 2015 5:57 a.m. PST |
Actually, Home Rule had already been agreed in 1914 and King George V (who could not have been more pro-Irish) had already given Royal Assent to the preliminary legislation, so but for the start of WW1, Ireland would have had exactly the form of independence that the majority of Nationalists wanted. The fly in the ointment just before and immediately after the war was the armed private army of the Unionists who, despite their professed loyalty to King and Country, refused to accept the will of Parliament and vowed to oppose Home Rule. If there had been no WW1, there would almost certainly have been some kind of civil war in Ireland and the position of the Army would have been a difficult one, especially in the light of the Curragh Incident which split the high command politically. |
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