Le Bovin | 09 Feb 2015 7:31 p.m. PST |
Hi everyone, I have been taken in the last few months by the Of Gods and Mortals game, specifically the Norse myths. I have read a few books (sturlusson<s edda and I dabbled in the poetic Edda and some more modern retake on the myths) but there is something in the OGAM norse army list that I cannot find anywhere: Troll-Woves Sure, in the norse mythos, there is an abundance of trolls (useful as a plot tool to keep Thor away… hammering), and there are quite a few wolves, but nowhere I have found them to be merged into one creature. So, quite simply: what are these troll-wolves? they sound too fun to be left out of my games!!! |
Ron W DuBray | 09 Feb 2015 8:01 p.m. PST |
I have read a lot of books on Norse history and most of the sagas and have never herd of a Troll-wolve |
Xintao | 09 Feb 2015 8:10 p.m. PST |
Could it be a misspelling? Troll-Wives? Xin |
FABET01 | 09 Feb 2015 8:18 p.m. PST |
In this case I'm pretty sure "Troll" is an adjective. It's cropped up in several folk stories I've seen, but I've never seen an explanation. In context it seems to mean something like "fierce or wild". |
FABET01 | 09 Feb 2015 8:25 p.m. PST |
Oh.. and for my troll-wolves I used Goblin wolves from reaper: link I should have probably just used regular wolves, but had a few blister sitting around so they got enlisted. |
darthfozzywig | 09 Feb 2015 8:49 p.m. PST |
they sound too fun to be left out of my games!!! Yeah, that seems like a case where if the legend isn't legendary enough, it's time to get creative. |
Great War Ace | 09 Feb 2015 8:56 p.m. PST |
"Hell hounds" would be different, how exactly? Aren't we seeing mythos overlap? Mistaking troll-wolves for troll-wives: now that is funny…. |
Winston Smith | 09 Feb 2015 11:45 p.m. PST |
In Poul Andersen's Hrolf Kraki's Saga, the climactic battle includes boar trolls. |
ZULUPAUL | 10 Feb 2015 3:31 a.m. PST |
Iam using Heroscape werewolves for troll-wolves |
Rhoderic III and counting | 10 Feb 2015 3:33 a.m. PST |
"Troll" is never an adjective as such (unless maybe it's been so in old Norse), but it can be taken to mean "something to do with magic", especially in the sense of the fearsome "unknown other". In modern Swedish, "trollkarl" (literally "troll-man") means wizard. Merlin and Gandalf, for instance, are troll-men. |
FABET01 | 10 Feb 2015 5:17 a.m. PST |
Where "Troll" would precede a word (as in your translated to english example troll-man)it would be a Hyphenated Adjectives. In Trollkar it becomes a compound noun. But the word also occurs after nouns (like in Battle Troll – referring to a warrior, like a beserker). While troll is usually translated as "majic", it does have other context that seems to be lost to us today. Maybe "weird" is a better translation (especially as it relates to the old English). |
Le Bovin | 10 Feb 2015 5:20 a.m. PST |
Troll wives (funny typo in the extreme) and/or magic wolf; as much sense as this would make, linguistically, I would guess that was not the intent of the author Andrea, because the stat line of these troll-wolves is not reflecting that at all (long move and big, I think… do not have the book with me). On the other hand, these stats would suit perfectly the concept brought by Mr FABET01; to use "troll" as in big, dumb and ugly… Norse poets are particularly fond of using synonyms and metaphors to talk about… well everything. Even if the old poets never used it, making a Kenning with the word "troll" certainly is in the spirit of it all… great discussion, guys! |
Rhoderic III and counting | 10 Feb 2015 8:12 a.m. PST |
I don't think that's what a hyphenated adjective is, but no matter. It feels to me like such a non-Nordic bastardisation to pigeonhole the word "troll" as "big, dumb and ugly", essentially forcing it into the same mould as the word "ogre". That said, I don't dispute that it's become the norm outside the Nordic countries, and that it's how the author of the game in question was naturally thinking of the word. Just for reference, in a more nuanced Nordic sense of the word, it can very well mean "big, dumb and ugly", but it can also mean "fey, enchanting, beguiling, mysterious, otherworldly and sorcerous/ensorcelled" or any subset of those words. Possibly also "mischievous". "Wild", yes, in the sense of "something of the deep unfamiliar wilds where The Other dwells". "Fierce"… well, alright, I'll yield on that one. Although, if "battle troll" is used in the sense of "berserker" in the Eddas, I wonder if the "troll" in that construction might not carry connotations closer related to shamanism (for lack of a better word) and trance than to muscle and sinew. The berserker as one who gains his supernatural skills in battle by communing with The Wild. Pick one of John Bauer's folklore-inspired paintings – any one – and I can guarantee you there will be something very deeply "trollish" about it in our Nordic sense of the word, even if no actual trolls are depicted in it. But none of that has any bearing on the Troll-Wolves in Of Gods and Mortals, of course. |
FABET01 | 10 Feb 2015 8:55 a.m. PST |
Unfortunately we in modern societies like to have things neat. We as gamers have become especially bad about that in fantasy. So when someone says something is trollish, we get a very specific idea of what it's about. I don't think anyone images a troll as small and ugly hiding under a bridge waylaying goats anymore. Typically folktale don't differentiate between the type of magical folk. A creature may be called an elf, a troll, a goblin or one of many other things all in the same tale. When there are specifics they're usually very localized and will often have a proper name name like "Jenny Green Teeth". It really is more about atmosphere. John Bauer is excellent at capturing that Nordic air. Arthur Rackham is another great one capturing that atmosphere. I tried to capture some of that by painting my giants for OGAM in earthy washes. I came out OK, but just sort of got lost on the table top. |
Rhoderic III and counting | 10 Feb 2015 9:43 a.m. PST |
At one point years ago I was meaning to sculpt long hair on GW Gnoblars to make small Baueresque forest trolls, but I wasn't that good a sculptor. I'd envisioned them to basically look like little mounds of hair with arms and giant noses sticking out. They'd have been bloody awesome, but turns out free-flowing hair is much harder to sculpt than it may sound. They were going to fight (or ally with) Tolkienesque elves that I would have painted in a style inspired by Finnish artwork based on the Kalevala. On the subject of the word "troll", before I sound too negative, I can admit that the non-Nordic, "flattened" sense of the word has been around long enough, inspiring enough stories, artwork, miniature sculpts and so on, to have gained some self-worth quite apart from the older, more nuanced concept. To draw a parallel, the Wendigo from Crocodile Games' Wargods of Such-and-Such are kind of interesting in their own way, even if people well-versed in Native American folklore would probably find them a gaudy reduction of a much more nuanced original concept. |
doug redshirt | 10 Feb 2015 11:40 a.m. PST |
I seem to remember reading long ago that dead who are cursed to guard something like a treasure or location could also be termed trolls. Basically nasty undead. Bloated slow and incredibly tough to put down. |
Black Cavalier | 10 Feb 2015 4:52 p.m. PST |
I believe the author mentioned on the Ganesha Games yahoo group that the Troll Wolves were meant to be more like Dire (Giant) Wolves. |
rmaker | 11 Feb 2015 10:50 a.m. PST |
Maybe they sing in chorus, as in "troll the ancient Yuletide carol". :) |
JimSelzer | 12 Feb 2015 12:55 a.m. PST |
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