"Hull Down Markers " Topic

How many folk use hull down markers and at what scale?

I have untill recently used the card ones with our rules. However at 1:144 its possible to store a more artisic version. I have printed several slightly diffrent designs and then flocked them to match Hexon II terrain.

Does anybody use turret down markers? We use hull down markers and space the vehicle back to indicate turret down to save on marker types.

If you are not sure you know what this is about you can look at the bit we wrote (free of course)on this. Just ignore the second bit about the rules. It refers in the picture in there to the relavant US maual if you want to know more.

link

Right now, I don't play a game where the player deals with such.

I do have some plans for minor ridges and other microterrain to provide places for hull down positions, but nothing specific per model.

I think it makes sense, in some games, and have played with rules from others that use similar markers.

A small, flocked ridge, or minor hill would make them look a lot better than counters, so are much preferred in my book.

I seem to recall having to dice for going into effective hull, or turret-down positions in some rules, but can't recall which now.

Given the accuracy of modern weaponry, every edge you can get on the battlefield is useful.

We use mini dice placed behind the vehicle. As we have variable hulldown factors of 1-6 it works out well.

If a vehicle is hulldown it produces a dead zone on lower elevations based on the gun depression and the steepness of the reverse slope.

Mobius, how many types do you have? I struggle to depict hill contoures nevermind the steepness of hills! Your terrain must look awesome.

I use terrain boards.

Then use this tool to find the angle of the hill.

Now Mobius, don't make it look so complicated!

Actually, guys, his rules are pretty direct and easy to use on the issue of hull-down. He might use an angle-meter, but you don't have to.

What his rules do better than any others I've seen regarding hull-down positions are:
His rules don't just address the question of "Are you hull-down?", but "How hull-down are you?". You might be hiding your tracks, sprockets and lower nose plate. Are you also hiding your glacis? His rules also address the question of "Who are you hull-down to?" If you are hull-down to the tank on the opposite ridge line 1,000m away, you are turret-down to (and unable to shoot at) the tank advancing across the lower ground 500m away.

It's a pretty elegant gaming solution to a real world issue with many nuances.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Must admit we at MG don't go that far. We do have dead ground and reduced arc of fire for hull and turret down but its less subtle than Mobious but then again our hills are not that high typicaly only about 3 vehicles high (quite tall when you think the vehicles are 1:144).

It is supprising the small number of responces. Lots of folk play skirmish with foot where detail is important. Seems like they don't do tanks the same "justice" of key operational factors.

I use hull down markers for North Africa, allowing individual tanks to attempt to search for a fold in the ground affording some protection at a movement penalty. Success is determined by dice roll – easier for crews rated as veteran and harder for novices. The markers themselves are irregular shapes of balsa, textured and then painted in an (unsuccessful) attempt to match my desert terrain mat. They do the job and I think they look OK, but are lovingly referred to by one of my friends as "hedgehog poo".

Some Chicken, "hedgehog poo", Awsome ;-)! Do you consider turret down or just hull down in your rules?

Our rules do a similar job restrict movement and easire for vetrans always adds cofidenec if you are not the only one doing it the same way. Do you fight tanks in Norther Europe? Do they have hull down?

Isn't "turret down" the same as saying "no line of sight exists"?

Lion in the stars it is not. Turret down is when the only part of the tank visible is the commander (or now his sight). He can look out with little chance of being seen due to the very low visual signature and being mostly hidden almost no target to be shot at. In the old days this allows for situational awareness at little risk. With battle management he can aquire a range of targets, set shooting order then and fire almost automaticaly at the pre set, pre aquired and ranged targets as soon as he hits the hull down position. Fully out of sight is hide position US Field manual) FM7-7J, This is where we got the pictures for Bulletin 1 from.

It is supprising that wargamers have taken so long to get to grips with armoured vehicals there real strengths and weaknesses. Even MG has some limitations, some come down to how many rules do you want. When I retire (about 6 months) I want Bulleting 3 to have perhaps a few extra options for the tactician. e.g to better reflect the inability of a tanks past and current (but perhaps not future) tpo see infantry closer than about 30 yards (again in one of the US manuals).