"Another Russian 1812 Question - uniform details" Topic

Couldn't see this already discussed – sorry if I missed it….

Several elements to this

Do Grenadiers is Musket (Infantry) Regts wear the three or single flame grenade badge and do they have a plume?

Do the Jagers in same wear dark green trousers? Or same as rest of regt? Do the Jagers have plume? I am assuming that Grenadiers in Jager regts wore dark green trousers /matched the rest of the unit.

Do Musketeers (ie in the three non-Grenadier/Elite companies)in Grenadier Regts have plume and triple or single grenade badge? And the Jagers?

What about plume/badges for drummers/officers? I assume NCOs will be same as ORs.

- I am okay with plume colours black/white/red and NCO distinctives

Thanks for any help

John FoA (Napoleonic novice)

This is a great place to start:
link

Also, do an author search in the Message Boards for Alexandre and Seroga. These posts will tell you everything you need to know

With regard to the 3-flame grenade shako badge:
As Mr. Gingerich describes in the linked webpage, there is no question about grenadier companies (the elite in every army battlaion except the Life-Grendaier regiment, where all companies were grenadier companies) : these had 3-flames. Similarly, the 3 musketeer companies in a musketeer battlaion and the 3 jäger companies in a jäger battalion all had 1-flame shako badges. The question arises as to 3-flame grenades for fusilier companies (the not elite companies in grenadier regiments, except the Life Grenadiers). Recently, the current most well-regarded Russian uniformologist, Ul'yanov, has been quite asserive : fusilier comanes had 3-flame grenades. Mr. Gingerich report the same is found in prior well-regarded uniform descriptions by Gabayev. However, Mr. Gingerich has his doubts. I do too. In fact in a article co-authored by Mr. Ul'yanov in "Serzhant" No. 36 (Fall, 2006), an imperial order ("ukase") of 27 July 1809 (OS) is quoted specifcally giving the 1-flame grenade to fusiliers. I looked in the books of Russian "laws" and imperial orders, which are usually quite complete, but I could not find this ukase. Period iconography known to me does not answer the question either.
So …. it is really your choice with regard to the shako badges of fusilier companies. I would opt for 1-flame grenades, but you would agree with Mr. Ul'yanov of you chose 3-flame grenades.

With regard to who has plumes:
All (grenadier companies and fusilier companies) in grenadier regiments. Only the grenadier platoon in musketeer and jäger regiments (the grenadier company of these regiments is composed of a grenadier platoon – on the right of the line in mormal order – and a marksmen or strelki platoon – on th left of the line in normal order).

Jäger trousers:
Green wool September through April (or when ordered lcoally due to cold weather). White linen May through August. However, on camapign, extra cheap loose "bloomers" usually of off-white, and made of cotton or linen or a mix of leftover yarns, were most often used (over the wool trousers in cold weather). These had drawn strings at the waist and ankles (often made of actual scraps of string).

With regard to rank/rating distinctions:
Shako badges and plumes were as per the other ranks in the same company except …..
A musician's (drummers and fifers, and the regimental band which was technically in the first grenadier company), had red (scalet) instead of black plumes.
NCO's (including NCO musicians) were supposed to have plumes tipped white with a narrow fore-and-aft stripe of orange going through the white tip. However, I have never actually seen this stip in any period iconography or museum sample said to be of the era.
Officers in shako had all black plumes like the other ranks. Senior, staff and some other officers also might wear chapeau (bicorne). In campaign, officers very commonly wore visored forage caps. An oddity for officer's shako pompons : they were supposed to be wound silver braid with an imperial "A" monogram. Permission was given, to save officers' expensess, to replace various silver and gold items with tin or white metal, white textile, brass and yellow textile. This lead to many junior officers using NCO shako pompons (quatered white and orange+black, later quartered white and dark gray, simulating the orange+black effect.
There were other uniform regulations for non-combattants (with differencea for non-combattant officers, NCO's and rankers) – but few/no warmers model these anyway.

Did that cover all the questions?

- Sasha

Sasha and Jefferyw3

Thanks for the response. Yes that's everything I think. I note you exclude the Guard from this; they have Imperial doubled headed eagle badge on all ranks don't they? so just to check.
Jager trousers – all companies/platoons in a Jager Regiment wore same green trousers? So Jager Grenadier (Carabiniers?) platoon would have green trousers?
Would the Jager platoon in a Musketeer Regiment have dark green or would they be same as rest of unit (ie White [or off-white over] trousers).

Are there any easy to access illustrations of these over trousers.

Thanks again for help.

Oh and the link – OMG. Thanks great help to a starter like me
Cheers
John FoA

My Old Friend And Dear Colleague Alexandre,

I have some old 25mm French Guard Lancer figures…quite a few actually…

If I wanted to convert them into Russians…do you have any idea who I could convert them into?

What about this regiment:

Конный воин Нижегородского ополчения. 1813—1814

Or perhaps some other country who belongs to the Allies?

Best Regards
Art

This thread has a picture, but I doubt you're going to find figures with bloomers modelled. :)
link

Double-eagle badge
Yes, all guard infantry had the double eagle shako badge.

Jager trousers – all companies/platoons in a Jager Regiment wore same green trousers?
Yes, in "winter" uniform. Three exceptions : (i) officers might be wearing the gray campaign "riding" trousers, (ii) some regiments converted recently from (heavy) infanry to jäger would not get their green winter trousers until their existing white winter trousers wore out (life of winter trousers was established at 2 years), and (iii) actually the "bloomers" were the most likely on campaign (that's how the uniform trousers could last two years!).

So Jager Grenadier (Carabiniers?) platoon would have green trousers?
All combattant lower ranks in a jäger regiment would have the green trousers.
But some problems here with your question ….
In every regiment (guard, grenadier, infantry, jäger, marine), there were 3 battalions. In every battalion there were four companies, of which one was elite and called a "grenadier company". [There is a small exception for the nomenclature for the Life Grenadier regiment.] In each elite grenadier company there were the "grenadier platoon" (on the right of the line in normal order) and the "marksmen" or "strelki" platoon (on the left of the line in normal order). This applied to all regiments of every type.
There is a slight problem with the actual use of the 2nd battalions. On paper they were organized as per 1st and 3rd battalions. However, in most (not all) cases, the grenadier companies of the 2nd battalions of a division formed two combined grenadier battalions each of 3 companies, all elite. The three remaining 3 non-elite companies of the 2nd battalions would be used to fill out the 1st and 3rd battalions, and then would be typically used in a second line rôle pending receipt of new recruits.
There existed 3-company 4th or recruit battalions. They were mostly used to train and move recruits and rarely saw action. They did not have elite companies and actually had a very non-standard organization (suited for training).
Now, with regard to jäger …..
Late in the period 6 jäger regiments were promoted, for disctinction, to be grenadier jäger regiments. These were to be the light infantry to go with the (existing) grenadier regiments to form grenadier divisions. Previoulsy, the 2 grenadier divisions were made of 6 grenadier regiments. The change allowed (i) a 3rd grendier division to be formed and (ii) adopted for grenadier divisons of the usual organization of 4 "heavy" and 2 "light" regiments per division. The internal organization of the grenadier jäger regiments did not change. After "our" period, the grenadier jager regiments were re-named "carabinier regiments". The term "carabinier" was not used by the Russians at all until after the peace, except with reference to other nations' units.

Images of bloomers
Jeffry found two nice period illustrations of bloomers from one of my own posts at the napoleon-series forum. See his link above.
Also from Klein (figure on the right)

There is another very nice Klein with Russian jäger all in bloomers, resting/sleeping, including a standing junior officer also in bloomers. I can't find it online, but maybe "von Winterfeldt" will know a link for it.
A modern illustration (figure on the right)

Making a conversion to bloomers is pretty easy, using for example Milliput or epoxy putty. It is ratehr hard to get then too sloopy or baggy or wrinkled looking.

To my friend and mentor, Art
I do not know the specific figures you are thinking about, but in general in 28 mm I would say you are very close to Russian regular army uhlans:
From Klein
link
link
link
Modern illustrations and discussion
TMP link
For opochenie uhlans, I think you are aiming at the Kostroma lads (a regiment of 5 "hundreds" under the command of the colonel Nikolay Andreyevich Nebol'sin), not the guys from Nizhney Novgorod.
Конный Костромского ополчения полк / Konnyy Kostromskogo opolchenie polk / Kostroma militia cavalry regiment

From Mr. Conrad's translation of the Viskovatov, regarding the Kostroma opolchenie:
"…. in 1813, when over the border, horse soldiers received dark-green jackets of lancer pattern but without tails, with orange collar, lapels, and cuffs, with yellow buttons and white epaulettes; orange girldes with yellow trim; gray riding trousers with orange stripes and piping; gray caps of lancer pattern, with black leather above and an orange band, on which in front over the visor was a triangular badge of yellow brass with the HIGHEST monogram pressed in relief, and a brass cross above the band, with white cords and pompon; black lancer saddlecloths trimmed with two rows of orange cloth. On the fronts of these saddlecloths were sewn HIGHEST monograms of yellow cord, and in the back a coat of arms in the form of a shield divided into quarters: left top—light blue or sky blue, with a yellow half moon turned downward; right top—yellow; left bottom—orange, both without figures; right botton—white with a yellow crown. (Note: This is what is depicted on preserved drawings. The significance of this coat of arms is unknown.). Along with this same uniform and horse furniture, and in addition to their usual distinctions, officers differed from lower ranks in having dark-green chakchiry [riding] trousers instead of gray." – from Information and drawings received from the chief of Kostroma Province, in correspondence of 4 March 1847

Also for Art ….
By the way, Art, you are doing a wonderful set of posts on the current thread about columns approaching lines, for which my sincere thanks. With only rather minor changes to detail, the Russians had much the same "system" as you describe for the French. They made several adaptations/simplifications in the later years, both officially and in practise. An amusing one, perhaps, would be the instructions for ranging the rankers by height : by the publication of the infantry school of 1811, the exceptions to ranging by height covered more than 50% of the men!

Bien fort amicalement,
- Sasha

Sasha

Thanks that covers my questions – in more detail than I could have hoped for.

Brilliant and much appreciated

John FoA

John,

No problem. Happy to help. I play late period Russians – and a bunch of re-enactors practice in the park in front of my home in Petersburg. I can do this mostly from memory at this point.
:-)

By the way …. if you make bloomers, they are usually worn with the Russian "short" campaign boots, as shown clearly in the modern illustration above. In the infantry, these were blackened (waterproofed with a tarry lampblack + animal fat + linseed, flaxseed or sunflower oil mix) only at the foot – the shank or boot top was natural leather. Apparently this goop never really dried, so would make a tarry mess of your hands and the bottoms of the bloomers. The bloomers were either tucked in or tied with strings over the shank.

- Sasha

G'Day Alexandre,

Thank you…the uhlans from Klein will do nicely.

Again thank you…

I am not certain…but I want to say that I once read that even the French changed their system of heights in the ranks…since the first rank no longer took a knee.

Even though the distance of each pace is the same, it was found that the tallest men would quite often hit the soles of the shorter men to their front. That was another reason they were also placed in the first rank.

Best Regards
Art