Tango01 | 28 Jan 2015 10:48 p.m. PST |
"The Islamic State has released the first pictures of its own sniper battalion in what appears to be propaganda to answer the hit US film, American Sniper. Bearded as well as clean-shaven members of the eight-man unit are pictured posing with long-range Russian-made Dragunov sniper rifles in northern Iraq. Adopting the look of an American sniper unit, the fighters are kitted out in khaki uniforms, peaked caps and ski goggles to protect them from the glare of the sun…" Full article here link Amicalement Armadn |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 28 Jan 2015 10:58 p.m. PST |
I don't know if they're brave or dense, or perhaps both, showing their faces like that. |
Deadone | 28 Jan 2015 11:04 p.m. PST |
It doesn't matter – the photos were probably taken deep in IS territory. It's like US troops showing their faces in Alabama or California for them. Also at least 1 appears to be a Westerner. Wonder if he (or any of these guys) has military training. |
cwlinsj | 28 Jan 2015 11:34 p.m. PST |
I don't see any "Westerners" in that line-up. They all look like Arabs to me, unless you mean the redhead, which isn't that uncommon. I like how the article claims 200 meters is a great distance for a modern rifle, not that Dragunovs are really "sniper" grade rifles, they're meant to be issued to designated marksmen, who are different than true snipers. |
Tango01 | 28 Jan 2015 11:40 p.m. PST |
It can be french… TMP link Amicalement Armand |
Dr Mathias | 29 Jan 2015 6:24 a.m. PST |
I personally wouldn't be dismissive about ISIS training snipers. These guys have the potential to do as much killing as an average suicide bomber and slink off to do it again. |
basileus66 | 29 Jan 2015 7:58 a.m. PST |
Apparently they have already fought at the siege of Kobane. |
Legion 4 | 29 Jan 2015 8:21 a.m. PST |
If true, they should be a consideration when running ops. Especially for Western Advisors, who would be priority targets. I don't know if they're brave or dense, or perhaps both, showing their faces like that.
They don't care, if they die while on Jihad, they go to paradise … so in their minds … It's win-win … |
Bangorstu | 29 Jan 2015 8:28 a.m. PST |
I'm not dismissive of the idea of snipers – it's the French elite jihhadis I'm sceptical of given the only source is Russia Today. If it were an issue I'd expect the Front Nationale to be making hay with it. |
Lion in the Stars | 29 Jan 2015 11:45 a.m. PST |
200m is a long shot for a bad AK. Dispersion alone may put you off the target at that distance, and that's assuming that the shooter is actually aiming properly. 400m is an easy shot for my PSL (Romanian-made Dragunov equivalent), and I'd trust her out to 600m. My skill reading the wind isn't up to the task for taking any shots beyond that, but the weapon herself is good to about 900m if I can see enough of the target (dispersion strikes again). |
Legion 4 | 29 Jan 2015 2:18 p.m. PST |
I'm a pretty good shot, but I still like calling-in FA and CAS … |
GNREP8 | 29 Jan 2015 2:28 p.m. PST |
I don't see any "Westerners" in that line-up. They all look like Arabs to me, unless you mean the redhead, which isn't that uncommon. ---------------- i guess that all down to your pov – 6 at least could look like Westerners to me (assuming you define that as incl Spain, Portugal, Italy, Cyprus and Greece of course). In law enforcement there is constant confusion between Mediterranean European and Middle Eastern folk – and don't even mention that of course a Brazilian electrician of European appearance was mistaken for a Pakistani or Arab suspect. If you put a well Known person like Ronaldo the Portuguese soccer star in that line up, he'd pass for ME with a headband on |
Legion 4 | 29 Jan 2015 2:32 p.m. PST |
I don't care if they are from Mars … to me they all look like targets to be serviced. Call me old school … |
cwlinsj | 29 Jan 2015 5:05 p.m. PST |
Still look like Arabs to me. Besides, when does 8 men comprise a "battalion"? |
darthfozzywig | 29 Jan 2015 5:21 p.m. PST |
I'm a pretty good shot, but I still like calling-in FA and CAS …
When you care to send the very best… |
Katzbalger | 29 Jan 2015 5:40 p.m. PST |
Okay, except for the "leftie" shooting (one of the last pictures), do all the photos of them in position to shoot show a definite lack of stock weld? I don't think they are going to hit much at range. Rob |
GNREP8 | 29 Jan 2015 6:31 p.m. PST |
Still look like Arabs to me. -------------- oh well. Shows how Stockwell happened I guess (and they were SAS) – I think many people would struggle to distinguish a swarthy dark haired Western European from say Portugal from a swarthy dark haired inhabitant of say Syria - |
Deadone | 29 Jan 2015 6:38 p.m. PST |
oh well. Shows how Stockwell happened I guess (and they were SAS) – I think many people would struggle to distinguish a swarthy dark haired Western European from say Portugal from a swarthy dark haired inhabitant of say Syria I agree. Arabs are Caucasians after all. They do come in different flavours though depending on with whom they mixed and the climate they live in. |
cwlinsj | 29 Jan 2015 7:53 p.m. PST |
Yeah Yeah I know. Iran actually means "land of the Aryans"…etc, etc. Some of them could easily pass for Mexican (even the red-head), however, in this context, they look like gentlemen of Arab ancestry. |
goragrad | 30 Jan 2015 12:23 a.m. PST |
Actually, as to ethnicity they could be any Mediterranean group, although the red bearded fellow does have more of a northern look in that second picture. As to rifles, the left and center front and the second from right rear weapons are PSLs. As to 200 meters, I put 5 of 5 into a yard sign from the last election at 200 yards with my PSL – standing with one elbow on the table. 2 of 5 hit the 12in target the sign was supporting and one just missed the edge of the target. And I was shooting into the setting sun…And my glasses were fogging up… I then put 2 of 5 into the target standing. As to cheek weld, with the offset, look under scope mounts on the PSL and Dragunov, unless you add a supplemental pad to the stock, there is no 'cheek weld.' A lot of US owners do add those pads – don't see any in the photos. |
Legion 4 | 30 Jan 2015 11:49 a.m. PST |
When you care to send the very best…
|
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 30 Jan 2015 12:00 p.m. PST |
I'm a pretty good shot, but I still like calling-in FA and CAS … Lt. Dan: "We need fast movers, now!" But isn't that a bit inefficient and overkill to call in a fighter-bomber or attack helo to take out a lone sniper when your own sniper can do it? Unless you don't have one, of course. |
Lion in the Stars | 30 Jan 2015 12:20 p.m. PST |
The challenge in taking out a sniper is locating him precisely enough for the weapon(s) you have available. You need a very precise location for a single man (who should have good camouflage) in order to shoot back with a sniper or MG. You need a much less precise position if you're throwing something explosive. M72 LAW was the Israeli's preferred counter-sniper. "I know he's in the 3rd floor of that building!" BOOM! Unfortunately, throwing explosives at snipers tends to result in lots of collateral damage when you're talking about fighting in a city. ===== And before I replaced the far-too-short stock on my PSL, I had to try to figure out a chin weld. It works, if you can get exactly the same chin weld every time. But it feels horribly unnatural to me, since I was taught to rest my cheekbone on the top of the stock. |
Weasel | 30 Jan 2015 12:25 p.m. PST |
People in war with ample access to Russian weapons use said Russian weapons to make tactical choices that have proven advantageous for the past 200 years. Film at 11. |
goragrad | 30 Jan 2015 4:01 p.m. PST |
Per the linked article, Juba had well planned escape routes when he fired. Harder to get the sniper using another sniper or area weapons when he shoots and scoots… ------------
I agree with the uncomfortable position trying to get a cheek weld, Lion. I don't even try – might be why my 400 yd is not as consistent as I would like…
On the other hand, I haven't felt uncomfortable with the shortness of the stock. Of course, when hunting I am usually wearing a few more clothes due to fall and winter weather. Would be interesting to get one of the rubber stock extenders though. |
Lion in the Stars | 30 Jan 2015 5:13 p.m. PST |
@Goragrad: I went with a very nice Tiger Maple stock from Rhineland Arms: link It's almost 4" longer than the Russian-style stock, which I needed for my shoulder spread. It's sucked up about half a quart of boiled linseed oil so far, I could probably get another half-pint of oil worked in there. It seems I learned a very … "angled" way of shooting, though I do wear a size 50 sportcoat. Those two together make for my nose being very close to the end of the receiver with the original stock. @Weasel: pretty much. I suppose that the members of this "sniper battalion" are the only DAESHbags who believe in actually aiming when at long range… Inshallah doesn't work so well for making hits at anything greater than pistol range, after all. |
Legion 4 | 31 Jan 2015 9:12 a.m. PST |
Lt. Dan: "We need fast movers, now!"But isn't that a bit inefficient and overkill to call in a fighter-bomber or attack helo to take out a lone sniper when your own sniper can do it ? Unless you don't have one, of course.
Yeah … but I like the Boom !! Of course, do you know if it is only one sniper ? And are there other of the enemy in the vicinity ? Plus do I want to risk any (more) of my troopers' lives because I'm trying to be cost effective ? Just some of the many considerations a commander must evalute … |
goragrad | 31 Jan 2015 8:12 p.m. PST |
Lion, my problem with those aftermarket extended length stocks is that they are carved from solid hardwood (or at least appear to be). They look nice, but the originals are made from hardwood plywood. Thus being a bit more durable. Now my brother has a dozen sheets of 3'x4'x3/4" maple plywood in the basement that I think about as stock material… Sounds like you have a bit more width (and I presume limb length) and that the added stock length is a necessity… ----- Problem with big Booms in urban combat is collateral damage – How many recruits do you want to generate to get one sniper? |
Legion 4 | 01 Feb 2015 1:21 p.m. PST |
Problem with big Booms in urban combat is collateral damage – How many recruits do you want to generate to get one sniper?
Frankly any commander does NOT want to lose any troops. Unfortunately usually someone would get hit before you knew the sniper(s) was there. When in doubt I'd rather lose ordinance and ammo, then troops. I and most other commanders would NOT waste troops lives knowingly. And yes, collateral damage is a fact of combat … So tell me something I don't know … |
goragrad | 01 Feb 2015 6:47 p.m. PST |
Not pointing out anything than anyone who has studied military history doesn't know… Just noting that in some cultures that the tradeoff for one sniper today might be dealing with several tomorrow. Rather similar to the reprisals carried out in the Balkans and elsewhere by the Axis in WWII – there may be a point of negative return on investment. Of course I have never been in a situation where I had to make the call – just thinking of my reaction to the news that someone blew up my 7 year old nephew… |
Deadone | 01 Feb 2015 9:01 p.m. PST |
Frankly any commander does NOT want to lose any troops. Unfortunately usually someone would get hit before you knew the sniper(s) was there. When in doubt I'd rather lose ordinance and ammo, then troops. I and most other commanders would NOT waste troops lives knowingly. And yes, collateral damage is a fact of combat … So tell me something I don't know The trick is to not get caught being sniped in urban warfare. Russians learned that in Chechnya and second time they went in, they fuel air explosived any suspect building they came across. I remember one news report following a Russian armoured convoy in 1999. There was rumour of sniper fire from a nearby village and that was enough to call in a Sukhoi and level the place with FAEs. |
Legion 4 | 03 Feb 2015 8:59 a.m. PST |
Not pointing out anything than anyone who has studied military history doesn't know… I'd hope so … but still needed to be said … Just noting that in some cultures that the tradeoff for one sniper today might be dealing with several tomorrow. We don't always know that for sure … but yes it happens. So my option as a commander is lose some of my men. To hopefully insure the death of one or more enemy snipers does no create more. I would not want to be under the command of anyone that thought that way …. just say'n … Rather similar to the reprisals carried out in the Balkans and elsewhere by the Axis in WWII – there may be a point of negative return on investment. There may be a point of neg returns. But losing my troops would always be a negative return. Of course I have never been in a situation where I had to make the call – just thinking of my reaction to the news that someone blew up my 7 year old nephew… Understand, but what about the reactions of the parents, wives, etc. of my young troops. Most of which were still in their late teens, if they were KIA'd. Because I as their commander I was reluctant to use suppressive fires. And of fearing collateral damage, etc. … Yes, many should be glad they were never in a position to make such a decision … As we often know, there are no easy answers … many shades of gray. If your 7 old nephew was 10 years older under my command, what decision would you hope I make ? |
Legion 4 | 03 Feb 2015 9:08 a.m. PST |
The trick is to not get caught being sniped in urban warfare. God yes, I agree and would avoid at all costs … We were trained in MOUT and even as a Commander I ran exercises on my own. But we also trained to avoid such combat. And studied Stalingrad, Manila, Jerusalem, etc. … However, as we see in the current conflicts, like Fallujah, there was no real option. Russians learned that in Chechnya and second time they went in, they fuel air explosived any suspect building they came across.I remember one news report following a Russian armoured convoy in 1999. There was rumour of sniper fire from a nearby village and that was enough to call in a Sukhoi and level the place with FAEs. May be a bit overkill, but I understand the thinking. Especially with the Chechens being islamic and willing to die instead of retreat, etc. … Just like we find if Iraq, A'stan, etc., today … or even the IJF in WWII … |
goragrad | 03 Feb 2015 10:07 p.m. PST |
Actually one of the reasons the Russians have such opposition in Chechnya is a result of the attitude that destroys a village based on a rumor of sniper fire. It makes it easier to find recruits to take a school hostage when your opponent conducts their operations with a lack of restraint. It helps with respect to avoiding that sort of retaliation when one is conducting operations in countries overseas. Of course with modern travel capabilities even that does not preclude it. As to my nephew, he currently bounces from being a priest to designing super tanks when discussing his future. Should he be in a combat unit in the future, I would wish his commanding officers to take all proper care when conducting operations in which he was involved. I will note that the ROEs imposed in Afghanistan were excessively restrictive. I also find the deliberate targeting of civilians (particularly children) by the various insurgent/terrorist groups unacceptable. |
Legion 4 | 04 Feb 2015 7:48 a.m. PST |
Actually one of the reasons the Russians have such opposition in Chechnya is a result of the attitude that destroys a village based on a rumor of sniper fire. It makes it easier to find recruits to take a school hostage when your opponent conducts their operations with a lack of restraint.
Yes, many who study the art and science of warfare know that … there is always a "Goldielocks Zone" … Sometimes you just have to find it. Mistakes may happen, sadly … As to my nephew, he currently bounces from being a priest to designing super tanks when discussing his future. Should he be in a combat unit in the future, I would wish his commanding officers to take all proper care when conducting operations in which he was involved. I hope he becomes a priest. But if not, if he joins the military. Most likely his CO will do the proper things. And he comes home, in good condition. However, as we know, there are generally very few guarentees in combat. All that can done is put things in as close to in your favor as possible. I will note that the ROEs imposed in Afghanistan were excessively restrictive. I agree, but soldiers must follow lawful orders. And find ways to still be effective, somehow … hopefully. I also find the deliberate targeting of civilians (particularly children) by the various insurgent/terrorist groups unacceptable. I can't agree more. Those thugs have lost their hunmanity, etc., and should be hunted down "with extreme prejudice". Dare I say, no prisoners, save for those few needed for intel. Usually these types, want to be martyred. So they don't always give you a chance to take them as EPWs … but a more approriate KIA … Plus with these types, like the IJF in WWII, many times you can't trust that they are really surrendering. They may well be packing a suicide vest under their clothing … I think my orders to my troops would be if in doubt … well you can figure out the rest … |