"Welly: which way do I go?" Topic

For us patrons of the Napoleonic era it is now officially "Waterloo Season!"

The question of the day: IF Wellington and his Allied army was forced to retreat from the battlefield of La Belle Alliance aka Waterloo, in which direction would it be? Toward Brussels? Or Hal and the extra 15,000 troops deployed there (and thus the English Channel)?

Would it be predicated upon a voluntary decision or upon the panicked choice of the troops?

For the tabletop game, this direction can be important for the movement of units with regard to any retreat rules used by the players. In other words, which was the line of communication?

Your thoughts?

Interesting question. I should think Brussels. If that city falls, so falls an important ally on the continent. It's also their current supply line/line of communication.

BTW, hypothetically does this mean that the Prussians are good and whipped and chose to fall back toward their home or did Grouchy march toward the sound of the guns and tip the balance in Napoleon's favor at the critical moment?

WATJ: this is more for the game/campaign scenario what-if situations. Whether one plays it as a stand alone game or that of a battle occurring some where in Belgium during a war-game campaign, I guess what I am asking is which ultimate direction would that army retreat?

BTW, hypothetically does this mean that the Prussians are good and whipped and chose to fall back toward their home

I think that if the Prussians had been driven back towards Namur after Ligny, Wellington wouldn't have stood and fought at Waterloo. Thus, the direction of their retreat from there is moot. The whole campaign would have looked very different.

I think it is kind of important to know what the Prussians would have done. If they perform historically and stick around but Wellington lost at Waterloo, then perhaps he falls back to Hal, collects reinforcements and has another whack at Napoleon.

I just my ( first of many? ) game of Waterloo without the Prussian involvement ( dotsofpaint.blogspot.ca )

The rules indicate that any formations falling back, must go in the direction of the LOC. The question of course, is that down the road towards Brussels ( north ) or through Braine L'Alleud ( west ) to towards Hal?

Wellington probably would have retreated on his supply lines. That is why he sent that 10,000 off on his right flank.

The question does not have enough detail or fact pattern. It really hinges on whether the Prussians come to Waterloo. No Prussian assistance at Waterloo means a certain defeat for the Anglo-Allied Army.

Assuming the question takes into account Prussian assistance at Waterloo, than presumably both allied armies are defeated and forced back. Gneisnau wanted to go to Namur badly before Waterloo and would definitely pull back if Wellington and his force were shattered. I think this means the Nosey definitely has to run for the coast.

Another possibility is that Grouchy stops or intervenes in the Prussian attempt to reach Waterloo and Nosey is beaten in detail. I think again this means he runs for the coast.

The historical record indicates that Wellington always looked out for himself and British interests first. He indicated he would fight Boney again if the the Prussians could get a Corp to Waterloo, but hedged his bet by putting troops at Hal to keep the line of retreat open. I significant reversal at Waterloo under either scenario would have sent both armies reeling towards their base of operations to wait assistance from the Russians and Austrians.

The real interesting question is what does the little Corsican do after a victory at Waterloo?

The rules indicate that any formations falling back, must go in the direction of the LOC. The question of course, is that down the road towards Brussels (north) or through Braine L'Alleud (west) to towards Hal?

In that case, Brussels…directly north. That's where the supplies come from.

If the battle started I'd say towards Hals. Lots of contemporary reports of the Brussels road being clogged by mid afternoon.

tbh I think if he has to retreat after giving battle he's in big trouble either way.

G'Day Doug

Which way to go….?

Why…send a French avant-garde…sneak it through the lines and fight it out with the Duc's de Berry's forces.

Anytime there is a non-historical battle fought…or just a hypothetical Napoleonic game in 1815…the Duc's de Berry's troops are standing tall with the Allies ;-)

Best Regards
Art

Before the battle switch Ney and Grouchy. Ney is more capable against the Prussians and Grouchy won't make Ney's mistakes. Also, position the Guard in the center with your artillery to better coordinate with cavalry assets.

Did this in the SPI boardgame and panicked the Prussian Anglo-Allied player.

Wellington will position his forces so they can't be cut off from a port and will scream for the Russians.

Imrael:

Lots of contemporary reports of the Brussels road being clogged by mid afternoon.

Latest research says otherwise.

Paul :)

I assume the OP is thinking about the game/rules, which require units to retire on their OOB, so I guess to Brussels is the way to make your units retreat.

Well, which way would Wellington have gone if Napoleon had sent only a small force to follow him back towards Brussels and pushed his main attack via Hal?

Well he wouldn't have had any choice but to head for Brussels then would he?

Humbugged by God!

The snag about "the central position" is that it is all to easy to lose contact with your opponent(s) if you do not smash them at the first encounter. Obviously, splitting Allied from Prussian forces is a good thing, as it allows defeat in detail. But, of course, as they increasingly separate, the routes open them only tend to diverge, as lines of communication do indeed tend to be in the plural. If your forces lose touch with them (as in poor Grouchy), you are now forced to follow one, ignoring the risk posed by the other.

DoW would have fallen back on Brussels and Antwerp (or rather towards, but, if not pursued………..). The flanking force at Hal was to prevent a French move and preserve a second (not an alternative) route north across Forest or Soignies to Brussels.

I am looking to do a campaign using the maps from SPI's Napoleon's last Battles, I am trying to work out why and how the Prussians fell back from Ligny to Warvre.

There was no major roads while I know Blucher was keen to stick to meeting Nosey, why did he not head back towards Maastricht

Also is Hal (with Nosey's reinforcements) south of Turnhout?

Hard to advise you on this, as a massive question, that has been asked since the evening of 16th June. Everything said play safe and fall back on Liege/Namur. Maastricht is much further on, you might as well say Berlin.

Whether it was Gneisenau, or Blucher, who decided, all knew that the only hope of beating Boney in Belgium was for the Allied Army under DoW and the Prussians to co-operate against L'Armee du Nord. The roads north/south were "OK" as they radiated from Brussels. The challenge was Wavre to Plancenoit/Ohain, after a deluge.

If you want to find Hal and Turbize try Google Earth. Reinforcements? Not so sure that is right.

There are many good books about the campaign that might help you, not just those from 2015. This forum has a reasonable search facility which would answer your questions also. I assume you are very new to this; if so, welcome to a lifetime's obsession!

Dead head thank you

The position at Hal and Tubize was according to Mercer's account of army rumour the better and preferred position. Adkin says the Waterloo position was chosen by Delancey rather than Wellington which is interesting.

A fight between Welly and Boney at Hal then becomes interesting because the Prussians may be too far away to reach him but he has another 15,000 men to hand. 72,000 French versus 83,000 Anglo-allies on a position chosen by Wellington for defence…not a walkover.