"Pour a little of..." Topic

pulp, and a little of Victorian sci-fi, and some steam punk into a blender and mix well and pour it out and you get…

A mess?

A lot of chopped up figures and bent blades in the wife's new blender?! 80

This?

YouTube link

Abney Park?

YouTube link

One entertaining, slightly, and one annoying, more than slightly (to me), video posts and not much else. And here I was thinking I might get some creative replies since it seems all three of these 'periods' lend themselves to the creative mind. Oh, well. But, hey, it's not too late to be more constructive – or has time run out?

Sorry Early, but your question made no sense. I don't know anything about steampunk, but I *do* know that VSF and the pulp era are two different time periods. I don't know why you would want to combine them. I guess you could put The Green Hornet in a VSF situation, but why would you want to?

A Victorian Steam-fi Punk that got beaten to a Pulp?

And some would argue that the difference between Steampunk and Victorian SciFi is whether you're working for the Empire or are one of the lowest classes working against the Empire.

As far as pulp's timespan goes, I'd argue that Sherlock Holmes is one of the first 'pulp' adventure settings (rather late Victorian, but still rather pulpy in terms of content and style).

Have to concur with this: "… Sorry Early, but your question made no sense…"

Perhaps if you re-stated it to tell what the inspiration for cross-time mixing lead to the question?

As far as pulp's timespan goes, I'd argue that Sherlock Holmes is one of the first 'pulp' adventure settings (rather late Victorian, but still rather pulpy in terms of content and style).

I completely disagree. Violence and implied sexual situations are typical in pulp magazines. Holmes and Watson are gentlemen and conduct themselves as same. Pulp era heroes are very frequently disagreeable, hard drinking violent guys fighting even *more* disagreeable villains. Sometimes it's hard to tell one from the other. Holmes rarely resorts to violence. The Spider will shoot anything that moves. Holmes is extremely sensible. The pulp magazine Shadow is *nuts*! In fact, there are so may differences between typical pulp era "heroes" and yarns and Holmes and his stories that I could go on all day describing them. But a couple of pictures of pulp magazine covers will cover that. Let's have a look:

I will have to differ on one point. Neither Pulp, VSF, or Steampunk are periods in my mind since that denotes a period of history. They are, all three, a contrivance to wrap games around which are mostly based on fiction and cinema – or entirely so based. Nothing wrong with that, of course. But they are not periods.

And I do think they blend some common threads in and I think mixing them together might be more fun. Take the unreliable technology of VSF, the rivets and steam of Steampunk, and the luridness of Pulp and there is an opportunity for a heck of a lot of enjoyably silly gaming available. I was just hoping for some furtherance of that thought.

Early

As I've said many times before, there is no such thing as "pulp" unless you're talking about the inside of an orange. The word "pulp", by itself, is much too nebulous to make sense for anything else. I'm sure that in your mind you see, and feel that you understand something called "pulp", but that probably isn't what someone else sees, and it won't be without some specific defining qualities. There should be some parameters, and book ending the period between the turn of the century and the mid 1950's, and recreating fiction from that era, fills the bill, as that's when pulp magazines existed. The pulp era is already *very* wide open considering how long the period lasts and the many forms of related fiction that existed during that time. For instance, "The Shadow" was a pulp magazine, a radio drama, a comic book, several "B" movies and a film serial. "Tarzan", one of the first and best of the pulp era heroes, was serialized in pulp magazines, was a feature film, a film serial, a comic book, a radio drama, and very long running comic strip. "Hard Boiled" detective fiction was born and thrived during the period in pulp magazines, on the radio, and in films like "The Big Sleep" and "The Maltese Falcon". But most importantly, the pulp magazine covers that I showed look *nothing* like *anything* Victorian or steampunk. So, I'm sorry, I just can't imagine The Green Hornet or Sam Spade aboard the Nautilus fighting a giant squid.

This discussion has been had before.

IMO Sherlock Holmes, along with the Victorian 'Penny dreadfuls' is the original Pulp hero. Sex and monsters feature regularly in the stories – albeit Victorian sex and monsters that turn out to have a rational explanation – but they are there.

On the other hand the difference between Pulp/VSF and Steampunk is the difference between wearing your corset under or on top of your clothes.

>>This discussion has been had before.<<

Yes it has.

>>Sex and monsters feature regularly in the stories<<

Sexual situations in Sherlock Holmes??? Examples please.

>>On the other hand the difference between Pulp/VSF and Steampunk is the difference between wearing your corset under or on top of your clothes.<<

This sentence is baffling. Leaving out VSF, which is nothing like pulp era fiction, "the difference between Pulp and Steampunk is the difference between wearing your corset under or on top of your clothes"???!!! Women during the pulp era did not wear corsets. What the heck are you talking about?

Hi Shadow. We cross verbal swords yet again !

First an apology. I was typing hastily at lunchtime and I should have said ‘the difference between VSF and Steampunk is whether the corsets are worn underneath or on top of the clothes'

Anyway, Sex in Sherlock Holmes. The one that springs to mind immediately – because I watch a TV adaptation last night – is ‘The Adventure of Illustrious Client'.

link

This involves a foreign nobleman who seduces young women, takes photos of them and pastes them – along with many intimate details – into his Commonplace book. Sherlock is contracted to prevent the ruin of yet another young lady by exposing the bounder for what he is. To Victorians this plot line is at least as salacious as any from a 1950's pulp magazine. Of course, monsters are plentiful in Holmes' stories, the most obvious being the spectrel hound of the Baskervilles which turns out to be just a big dog. In the later pulp genre these monsters have become aliens.

Steampunk started a natural growth from the New Romantics of the early 80's, itself a rebellion against the Punks of the late 70's who in turn were rebelling against Disco. What is different now is that electronic media makes writing and publishing Pulp stories easier than at any time since the genre was invented.

For the record I was never a Disco fan, a Punk or a NR, although as a Viking-age re-enactor I was mistaken as a NR on at least a couple of occasions.

>>The Adventure of Illustrious Client'.<<

>>"involves a foreign nobleman who seduces young women, takes photos of them and pastes them – along with many intimate details – into his Commonplace book. Sherlock is contracted to prevent the ruin of yet another young lady by exposing the bounder for what he is. To Victorians this plot line is at least as salacious as any from a 1950's pulp magazine.<<

To Victorians, yes. But not really lurid.

I just read it on-line. I had never heard of it before. And I have to admit that it's pretty wild for a Holmes story. Vitriol thrown in the villains face and 100 mistresses. Pretty good story. Thanks for the heads up. :-)

The Shadow – ever vigilant to ensure we never simply have fun in a hobby, but follow strrrrict rules in doing so!
We bow before your erudition, and apologize for questioning your comments, uttered ex cathedra.

>>The Shadow – ever vigilant to ensure we never simply have fun in a hobby, but follow strrrrict rules in doing so!<<

Baloney! I'm not in charge of your fun and never said or implied that I am. They're your figures and your rules. I really don't care what you do with them. Early asked what would happen if you mixed several genres. This is a discussion board. He opened a discussion, so we discussed.

>>We bow before your erudition<<

"We"?! Speak for yourself.

>>and apologize for questioning your comments<<

If we can't exchange views and information then why are we here.

>>uttered ex cathedra.<<

Instead of trying to be insulting, why don't you try offering your own opinion of what "pulp" is? Where do you think the word "pulp", as is used in this forum, came from? If there are no parameters why not simply use the term "adventure gaming" instead of "pulp gaming"?

Obviously, I'm not as well read in the pulp stories.

I'm used to Conan or El Borak, where the lady is barely more than window dressing on What Men Must Do.

No particularly sexy scenes in RE Howard's writing that I remember, which is why I included Holmes in early Pulp. Nor in EE Doc Smith's writing.

Well, I think that Pulp gaming is different from Pulp literature. For me Pulp literature spans 180 years of cheap sensationalist literature. From it other genres evolved including childrens comics and the modern graphic novel.

In gaming terms, Pulp publications have generated three distinct genre of gaming – Lost World Adventures (.45 Adventures) Steampunk (IHMN) and VSF (Gaslight).

One literary genre, three gaming styles ….

Could anything be finer ?

>>Well, I think that Pulp gaming is different from Pulp literature<<

I'll ask you exactly the same question as I asked servo.

Where do you think the word "pulp", as is used in this forum, came from? If there are no parameters why not simply use the term "adventure gaming" instead of "pulp gaming"?

The name of this board came from either the posters who asked Bill for it or from Bill himself. Have a look back on the archives and find out.

It might be a clumsy naming convention, but I'm happy with it.

>>The name of this board came from either the posters who asked Bill for it or from Bill himself. Have a look back on the archives and find out.<<

*I* know why this group is called the pulp gaming group. The question is why *you* think the word "pulp" is in the forum title.

>>It might be a clumsy naming convention<<

Not all. It means exactly what it says. The confusion is manifested when people think that the term "pulp" means anything but the pulp era and "pulp fiction", which was a term invented during the pulp era to describe lurid fiction from pulp magazines.

>>I'm happy with it.<<

Me too. :-)

A wee bit of pedantry is occasionally both enlightening and/or entertaining, an excessive dose of it is remarkable chiefly for how boring it quickly becomes.

And decidedly un-fun.

Is that the best that you guys can do? Try to insult me by calling me pedantic and accusing me of comments "uttered Ex Cathedra". Knocking me in latin no less. LOL. The hell with dealing with the facts, right?

Damnant quod non intellegunt.

Played you like a fiddle, Mr. The Shadow, played you like a fiddle. I think that was pretty good. ; ) And I notice you had no difficulty self-identifying with my comments though they were directed at no one in particular.

Though now I'm curious – what is the source of your 'facts' for a gaming world based on fiction?

And just what makes you think we don't understand? We are as entitled to our viewpoints as you are to yours. It's nothing more than some silly gaming that we find entertaining. Taking it too seriously qualifies for lack of invitations to share the gaming table in most circles.

Ipso facto ad nauseam quid pro quovadis! (the rest of you unwashed lot stay away from that line – I'm claiming it as a character name!!! same for those of you who take more regular bathing, too, by dang rabbit. well, maybe a couple of names; Ipso Facto Nauseam and his sidekick Quid Pro Quovadis. why, I think I'll even add the faithful servant and ex-slave Ceteris Paribus)

Et tu, Shadute! Now, can we just leave it at Pax Vobiscum?

>>We are as entitled to our viewpoints as you are to yours.<<

Of course you are. quot homines, tot sententiae. That doesn't mean that they are all correct.

>>Though now I'm curious – what is the source of your 'facts' for a gaming world based on fiction?<<

omissis jocis. "pulp". As I've asked before, why do you think that word is in the forum title, and what do you think it means?

Are we having fun yet?

Ultimately, the use of the word 'pulp' here simply refers to the process developed circa 1830 for a cheaper way to mass produce paper – using a soupy mixture of wood fibers referred to as pulp. From that came a cheaper, less durable paper product also referred to as pulp. From that came a cheap form of magazine, starting no later than the mid 1890's (though the antecedents for the content of those magazines can be traced backwards a decade or three, at the least), which also came to be called pulp. Then, around the early to mid-1930's, there was an explosion of such magazines and that, too, was designated pulp. From that, chiefly through the efforts of Bob Murch but also going back to a much earlier gaming system from Howard Whitehouse and, no doubt, earlier efforts that inspired him, developed the gaming 'world' referred to as pulp. From that someone asked the editor to create this board and thus came the title of this board.

We now await your contentious reply since that seems to be your stock in trade which you attempt to portray as defending the truth, though apparently it must always be your truth. Appareat sicut verum.

Auf wienerschnitzel…

>>We now await your contentious reply since that seems to be your stock in trade which you attempt to portray as defending the truth, though apparently it must always be your truth.<<

Why would I? You just described how pulp gaming and this group got their name perfectly. You are truly puzzling.

I cannot leave off without also mentioning Frank Chadwick's indispensable contribution in the form of Space 1889.

And I still like my original question about mixing these three genres – as in taking the unreliable tech of VSF, the rivets and steam of Steam Punk, and mixing in the ethos and pathos of "Pulp" to get something more rather than something less, and just different by degrees (as the difference between VSF and Steam Punk is more by degree – and personal definition – than not).

Mention Frank Chadwick, and I will repeat that he has, on numerous occasions, stated that Steampunk IS VSF.

And, me? I bow to EVERYONE.

*curtsy*

Damn, wrong again…

Doug

Just checked in to see if this teapot was still bubbling. Shadow, sorry if you felt insulted by my papal reference. His Holiness Francis I is justly popular.
I would not attempt to decree what is or is not"pulp." It is, by (lack of) definition a loose and subjective term, unlike, say, "WWI" or "The Civil War."
Early morning, thanks for the topic and don't be discouraged by the responses. I think we'd all agree there are weightier issues we can fight over! But I just wanna have fun, to quote Ms Lauper.

And the answer to the cocktail is: King Kong, atop Big Ben, flinging clockwork automatons, at steam turbine blimps, piloted by her majesty's ladies branch of secret service, while fighting the boarding sky pirate worshippers of set. Phew. Now go have a beer and paint figs.

Took but nary a month with a day or two lopped off to get an actual answer to my 'riginal question. Hope you weremnt kidding, Your Kidding! But, if you were, more power to you. It's all about the fun.

Seriously, however, I expect someone will be along, not too shortly, I trust, with an actual variation of the game you describe – and in 15 mm, if you please.

With the power of alcohol it shall be done, maybe. Possibly, got that clock tower somewhere