"Spanish Civil War 28mm International Brigades" Topic
21 Posts
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yarkshire gamer | 24 Jan 2015 11:43 a.m. PST |
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mashrewba | 25 Jan 2015 4:05 a.m. PST |
Lee Enfields? -they wish!!! Nice unit. Funnily enough theses are the exact figures I was going to use for my VBCW East Riding militia until I down scaled to 20mm. |
Henry Martini | 25 Jan 2015 7:05 a.m. PST |
Yes; HIGHLY unlikely. There seems to be a false assumption among gamers that anything inter-war is fully interchangeable between widely disparate conflicts, regardless of inappropriate costume, weapons or equipment. |
yarkshire gamer | 25 Jan 2015 12:33 p.m. PST |
Interesting points, Records show a delivery of 1000 Lee Enfield MK3 on 6th Nov 1936 to the Republican forces, along with 20350 "obsolete rifles" on 26th Sept 36 and another 15655 rifles on the 22nd Oct the same year. The "obselete" rifles are believed to be part of the 200,000 sent to arm the white army and contained Pattern 14 Enfields, Lee Metfords and some MK3s. So I think they would be around. So not a false assumption, reasoned thinking. Quite funny you mention "widely disparate conflicts etc", the figures are for the Very British Civil War and guess what (shush) Its not real ! Cant see any inappropriate uniforms, there was no uniform, I could post loads of pics showing this. I think these figures are great for the SCW. Look forward to seeing pics of your stuff to compare. |
spontoon | 25 Jan 2015 4:16 p.m. PST |
probably included a number of Ross Rifles, too! |
yarkshire gamer | 26 Jan 2015 3:12 a.m. PST |
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Henry Martini | 26 Jan 2015 5:47 a.m. PST |
There may well have been a sprinkling of such weapons amongst the vast stocks of Mausers and Moisin Nagants, just as there was a sprinkling of every conceivable rifle of the period and earlier, including even Japanese models, but was there the ammunition to render them usable in action, and therefore worth issuing to combat troops? Mixed rifles within units would have presented the quartermaster with a logistical nightmare, the lower the unit on the TOE, the more intractable the problem. Is this one-to-one? VBCW? The buildings are Hispanic, the thread title is 'Spanish Civil War 28mm International Brigades', and your blog makes it clear the subject is the SCW. It's not merely a question of costume; figures intended to represent British conflicts often have British webbing/equipment. Nothing I've seen (I have a couple of Ospreys and the Bueno book) suggest that any style of personal equipment other then Spanish/French was used (with the exception of some improvised gear and the 'Mexican' style affected by some Republican Andalusian militia units). I can't make out from the photos whether any of your figures have British equipment, though. |
mashrewba | 26 Jan 2015 7:40 a.m. PST |
Oh dear Mr Martini -you always seem to be so terribly angry -they're only toy soldiers you know (says the twerp who brought it up in the first place!!!). |
yarkshire gamer | 26 Jan 2015 5:45 p.m. PST |
This is the look I'm after, 1old french helmet, 1 fatigue cap, a selection of berets worn left and right and what looks like a knotted hanky for head gear. The bloke back left looks like he's knicked his dads suit jacket and kept the jumper on his gran knitted him for Xmas. We have dark leather webbing and pouches, light leather webbing, shoulder belt with cartridge pouches worn left and right, same belt worn round the waist. White shirts, green shirts, no uniform at all. |
Henry Martini | 26 Jan 2015 7:23 p.m. PST |
Angry Mr Gamer? Sorry, but I don't see that in my comments – and I certainly don't feel it in my person (projection?). My posts here are nothing more than the standard TMP, objective, dispassionate historical response and critique – but in the unlikely event that I do happen to suffer an episode of net-rage over someone's toy soldiers, I'll be sure to alert readers by using the appropriate emoticon:). Now to the variation seen in the photo: Regardless of colour (a bit of a red herring on your part, as it's pattern we're discussing – and how did you discern precise shirt colours from a B & W photo, anyway?), all the personal equipment appears to Spanish; either infantry rig or cavalry bandoliers. Yes, there is considerable variation in clothing, but entirely within the range you'd be likely to encounter in Spain during the SCW. With any irregular or improvised force this sort of geographical/chronological limitation will apply, so to use a lack of uniformity as an excuse to adopt an 'anything goes' approach is to stray from the path of strict historical authenticity – which is of course fine, and entirely your prerogative, if that particular quality isn't high on your list of priorities. |
yarkshire gamer | 27 Jan 2015 3:48 a.m. PST |
Is this the 5 minute argument or the full half hour. I have to agree somewhat with mashrewba, Henry your posts do come across with an aggressive tone, personally its your choice of wording, your first post with the shouty capitals and phrases like inappropriate, false assumption etc, the tone is very much like you think you are conversing with the uneducated. Fine thats your way, its not a problem, having been in the military and law enforcement I've been called a lot worse. Back to the thread I'm losing track of the point. I refer to the picture above and my blog post pictures, I can see on my figs plenty of similarities in the two, belts uniforms, lets use the word hues rather than colour, hats etc etc. There has to be some level of compromise between historical accuracy and a wargames unit, unless you have infinite time and money, you are initially restricted to avaliable figures unless you can sculpt. Next is money, there are 28 figures in the picture above at £7.00 GBP for 4 that's £49.00 GBP not including time for painting and basing. You could have seperate units for each threatre, each season and a specific time, but I bet there aren't many people who have that amount of disposable income. We will have to agree to disagree, l see a mix of weapons on my stuff which we have discussed and I have provided some detail about Lee Enfields in the conflict, the belts pouches in the real photo can all be seen on my figs, as can the different head gear, colours, clothing. To me they are a perfectly acceptable SCW wargame unit covering the conflict, I see no major historical accuracy issues. I think I'll do some AWI next ! |
Henry Martini | 27 Jan 2015 6:32 a.m. PST |
I've just noticed that I mistakenly attributed the accusation of anger to you, not Mashrewba, so my apologies for that. Without disrupting sentences with a stream of emoticons I can't stop people misreading the tone of a post – a solution I have no plans to resort to. I've explained the mindset with which I typed the above posts already, so I won't repeat it. However, I don't see how they differ in tone from the vast majority of posts on TMP that are trying to communicate an historical point. The only capitalised word in my first post is HIGHLY; used simply to add emphasis, as is standard practice in this form of communication. The use of multiple exclamation marks, as in Mashrewba's first post (the one that originally queried the presence of Lee-Enfield's) is however, by any standard, an unambiguous marker of textual shouting. |
yarkshire gamer | 27 Jan 2015 6:39 a.m. PST |
No problems, I once had a very interesting one sided meeting without coffee with a senior officer about capitalising or SHOUTING as he called it so it will always mean something different to me. Regards Ken |
Henry Martini | 27 Jan 2015 7:04 a.m. PST |
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Aubrey | 28 Jan 2015 7:22 a.m. PST |
Who makes the buildings yarkshire ? Apologies if I've missed the credit somewhere. Always good to see the SCW being gamed. |
yarkshire gamer | 28 Jan 2015 1:51 p.m. PST |
Hi Aubrey, The buildings are from Sarrisa Precision, its their 28mm South of the Border range, designed for Mexico / Texas but look just right for Southern Spain to my tired old eyes. The posters on the walls are from the SCW, 28mm can't recall off the top of my head who makes them, its a model railway co I think. Regards, Ken yarkshiregamer.blogspot.co.uk |
Aubrey | 29 Jan 2015 2:52 a.m. PST |
Thanks Yarkshire thought they might be Sarrisa Precision. A guy at the club has some. Was interested for my Old West gaming. I game SCW but its in 15mm using Peter Pig's excellent range. In the interests of 'Historical Authenticity' I would also like to respond to a few of the comments made by Henry Martini. I too have some of the Osprey books along with a few others. This includes the one on the International Brigades. I include the relevant page number from that book against my comment. 1) Use of obsolete / mixed weapons in action. The Republicans "took to the field with a very mixed array of small arms and support weapons of different calibres and often of obsolete patterns and poor quality giving brigade quartermasters and armourers endless problems" (p16) and Tom Wintringham described "'derelict Swiss and Austrian things, Steyrs most of them and 'odds and ends … clumsy bolts and sights battered to inaccuracy, a mixture of calibres …. Ross, Remington, Japanese, Turkish, Polish, Mexican …'" (p50). 2) Restriction of personal equipment to French / Spanish items. "It is stated that early North American Volunteers for the Abraham Lincoln Bn, acquired US Army Surplus M1901 series web equipment …. The equipment was supposedly abandoned at Albacete but taken up by other units" (p14). 3) Uniforms. "Photos and eyewitness accounts give evidence of British leather trench jerkins or identical copies, and long leather coats…" (p14) and Alvah Bessie's account of the uniforms (from 1938) "They were apparently the hand-me-downs of a dozen different foreign armies (there were even clothes with the United State Army's eagle-stamped buttons)" (p16) 3) An 'Anything Goes Approach'. "In winter men wrapped themselves in anything they could get; at Teruel the Lincolns even plundered costumiers, taking flashy civilian suits, loud shirts and sombreros" (p16). In fairness to Henry I went for a more accepted look for my 15mm Internationals (e.g. Berets, Adrian Helmets, Passomatas). But I understand your approach and also thought it only fair to point out that there was a lot more leeway in Uniforms & Weapons than Henry appears to suggest. I look forward to seeing your next unit. |
scrivs | 30 Jan 2015 8:22 a.m. PST |
They look great to me But, I must admit that after adding a few of the lovely Musketeer figures to my own Socialist Militia I eventually disposed of them due to them being armed with Lewis Guns and Lee Enfields. |
Aubrey | 30 Jan 2015 8:50 a.m. PST |
You could have kept your Lewis Guns Scrivs. Four were used by a British Section of one of the IB Battalions defending Madrid in 1936 it also says they had fought in the early militias (p18 of the IB Osprey if you are interested). When are you doing some more of your inspirational SCW posts ? |
scrivs | 30 Jan 2015 1:04 p.m. PST |
Thanks Aubrey, I suppose when I can talk somebody into playing me :) |
dualer | 22 Feb 2015 12:40 a.m. PST |
I have been wargaming scw since the 80s and my rule of thumb is show me a photo. I have no doubt that one or two lee enfields would have been used amongst the myriad of small arms that flooded into Spain. |
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