pessa00 | 22 Jan 2015 7:28 p.m. PST |
Thinking about doing up an army for WAB. Very early stages of research. Just wondering if the Wargames Factory plastics are ok for Late Achaemenid Persians Kardakes, or are they for earlier period Persian armies only? I thought I'd use em for my rank and file to keep overall costs down. Also, I'm doing some research on the Melophoroi, would they have had a Greek Hoplite style shield? The few pics I've found seem to imply this? But it's very unclear.. Thanks in advance. |
Pictors Studio | 22 Jan 2015 8:31 p.m. PST |
You can use them as Kardakes, just don't give them the wicker shield. Probably the Melophoroi would have had hoplons but they may have seen service without them as well at some points. You can field "hoplite" Persians in your army if that is what you are asking. |
Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut | 22 Jan 2015 8:46 p.m. PST |
Do as you will. If your opponent thinks it is wrong, ask him/her to prove the negative :-) |
Mithridates | 22 Jan 2015 9:17 p.m. PST |
Can I suggest you have a read of Duncan Head's book – excellent source material for ancient Persians, both early and late: link Also Jeff Jonas' web site : link I used the WGF guys as Kardakes – with hoplite shields and as peltasts with 'half moon' shields (taka). Unlikely sparabara were around much after the battle of Cunaxa. The bowmen can be rear ranks, formed archer units or skirmishers. You can also convert some to slingers. The WGF cavalry are also fine, either as medium or light cavalry. All the material I have seen on the Guard infantry shows them with hoplite shields – Warlord make some nice figures as does Sgt Major. Black Tree Miniatures are fine and may still have their 50% sale on. Great army with lots of choices. Good luck Garry |
pessa00 | 22 Jan 2015 9:17 p.m. PST |
"You can use them as Kardakes, just don't give them the wicker shield." Thanks for the tip PS, what would you suggest as the alternative? Shame really, I kinda like the big wicker shield! re the Melophoroi, I'm not looking to field hoplites as such, trying to stear clear of phalanx for this army. But I thought the hoplon might be a good way to distingish them as an elite unit (assuming the rest of the army doesn't carry one) :) |
pessa00 | 22 Jan 2015 9:18 p.m. PST |
Thanks Garry. Good advice. |
pessa00 | 22 Jan 2015 9:59 p.m. PST |
While we're at it, I did stumble across Sgt Major Miniatures "Bloody Day" range of Persians today. Has anyone had any experience with them, quality and size/compatibility wise? I'm seriously eyeing off their full and half-armoured Persian shock cavalry… |
Winston Smith | 22 Jan 2015 10:28 p.m. PST |
One of the theories about the Kardakes was that they were a desperate attempt to be imitation hoplites. So give them a hoplite shield. |
Gray Bear | 23 Jan 2015 12:06 a.m. PST |
I have a number of the Sgt Major Persian cavalry. I believe they were sculpted by a Patten brother(s) of original Gripping Beast fame. They are rather chunky but they paint up nicely and I am happy I purchased them. I do note in both the two small orders I placed the figures had some pitting and more than what I consider normal flash. Nonetheless, I really like them. |
GurKhan | 23 Jan 2015 4:00 a.m. PST |
Arrian says that the Kardakes were hoplites, so one popular theory is that they should have the Greek hoplite's Argive shield. Not everyone believes this – since Polybios describes peltasts in the Persian line at Issos who might be the same as the Kardakes – but it is a popular view. (In my own opinion, as set out in the book Mithridates linked to, there may have been both kardakes-hoplites and Persian peltasts present at Issos, which might explain the apparent contradiction.) If you say you don't want phalanx in your army, though, and you do want kardakes, then feel free to treat them as some sort of peltast: you could either give them crescent shields (as illustrated on the Alexander Sarcophagus) or light rimless round shields (as on the Kinch Tomb figure, link .) The Montvert Persian book is out of print, but you can find it on the scribd link Mithridates gives and probably elsewhere on the web as well. Nick Sekunda's Osprey on the Persian army is worth reading, as well. |
JJartist | 23 Jan 2015 4:50 a.m. PST |
TMP link Above link is to a TMP thread. This was a sort of designer's notes page for the decisions made for the WAB army lists: link Melophoroi; the tendency is to believe that they were equipped with Argive shields based on the mosaic at Pompeii:
This page is where that images lives: link Close up of some Kardakes with Argive shields: link I have Foundry figures I will use for late Melophoroi… so these above will be the grunts, explains the slow progress on any Persian forces… :) Oh by the way, anytime anybody mentions me along with Duncan Head in a post is quite a unique honor, thanks. Duncan and AMPW is the go to book. jjonas
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GurKhan | 23 Jan 2015 6:31 a.m. PST |
Duncan and AMPW is the go to book. AMPW's a little dated on the Persians: I'd go to the Montvert book, if you can. I don't really believe in the bow-armed kardakes any more, for instance D. |
Mars Ultor | 23 Jan 2015 7:14 a.m. PST |
I think he very well knew who "his daddy" was by that time. Great pic! Running over your own men to get away has always indicated to your troops what they should then do. |
mashrewba | 23 Jan 2015 7:18 a.m. PST |
Bloody Day miniatures -the old Vendel range -they are big figures. |
Zargon | 23 Jan 2015 10:31 a.m. PST |
Ol Dari is not running away, he's 'advancing to the rear and that fellow the chariot is going over is not obeying orders fast enough :) great modeling and paint up . Cheers Yes use the WGF plastics they work very well for later Persians but you will need to supplement for the Heavy cavalry and foot. |
pessa00 | 23 Jan 2015 2:34 p.m. PST |
A big thank you to everyone for the advice and info! Particularly JJ for the links and breakdown of how the WAB lists evolved, very interesting stuff. I think I'm now sufficiently motivated to take on this project. Time to buy some figures! |
Sobieski | 23 Jan 2015 9:49 p.m. PST |
Concentrate on enjoying the appearance of a Persian army. They're likely to be one long frustration tactically, in my experience. |
JC Lira | 30 Jan 2015 10:58 p.m. PST |
Have you seen the Steve Saleh Persians at Foundry? He too thinks that kardakes are imitation hoplites. |
Das Sheep | 31 Jan 2015 4:36 a.m. PST |
The Dark Ages plastic warriors and Arab Spearmen by Gripping beast in Plastic would work fine for Persians sans some of the Dark Ages heads and you would want Greek shields. The Persians also had imitation hoplites and used Greeks from Greek colonies as well as Green Mercenaries. To that end the Victrix plastic Greeks would work great, especially their Petlasts/Archers and unarmored Greeks, and even some in armor. The Wargames factory Persians are, from someone who bought some, horrendous. The soft angles take paint horridly, they dont dip well, and they just look bad imo. By combining the boxes you can make most of the Persian troop types with various Victrix shields and Gripping beast guys, and the Vixtrix mini's themselves work great for mercenary hoplites and the like. There are tons of archer parts in both the Plastic Arabs and Plastic Dark Ages warriors, though the main issue, again, will be the heads.' One box of Wargames Factory guys, if you really want those plastic shields, is probably ok. |
JC Lira | 31 Jan 2015 6:33 a.m. PST |
Arabs and Persians are distinctly different cultures and did not dress alike at all! Persians wore trousers, Arabs wore robes (trousers underneath, but you'll hardly see that on a mini). Persians wore hats while Arabs are going to make use of some sort of headcloth (wrap, turban, or keffiyeh). Their weapons would be different too, but if you're going with spearmen it shouldn't make a difference. I do not recommend using Dark Ages Arabs for Persians. |
Das Sheep | 01 Feb 2015 8:11 a.m. PST |
The dark ages warriors have tunics, pants and spears JC. I suggested the Arabs as well because Persians used a number of levy troops that did use robes…. |
Locknar | 01 Feb 2015 8:47 a.m. PST |
Your best options are foundry, crusader and 1st corps for persians. Wargames factory persian cavalry are also decent. You need a lot of cavalry! Plus at least one big unit of Greeks. |
JC Lira | 01 Feb 2015 12:32 p.m. PST |
Das Sheep, good point, the Achaemenids would have had many non-Persians in their army and the Dark Ages Arabs could probably stand in for their Middle Eastern levies. Carry on. |
aynsley683 | 12 Apr 2015 1:31 p.m. PST |
I'm thinking of doing this army also so have been having the same thoughts and choices. Does anyone know how the regular foundry figures match up with the Steve Salehi's foundry figures? I know they are bigger but if they are not in the same unit can I get away with it? As I intend to have the Salehi's hoplite Kardakes as the main heavy foot with some Greek merc. Hoplites and the rest of the foot being the other foundry foot with and with out the big wicker shield 'cause they do look good ( may not be historically accurate but what the hell). |
BigRedBat | 12 Apr 2015 2:12 p.m. PST |
I don't think you'd want to mix the Saleh's with the older Foundry range; they are distinctly different sizes. |
LEGION 1950 | 13 Apr 2015 7:17 a.m. PST |
I agree with BigRedBat. The Saleh are bigger than the older Foundry and will not mix. The Crusader range has some very nice Persians and 1stCorp also. Mike Adams P.S. Hi Simon |
aynsley683 | 14 Apr 2015 5:07 a.m. PST |
Thank you, will those mix with foundry at all as I have already picked up some foundry lead from ebay reasonably cheaply? Will also take a quick look at them today. |
HANS GRUBER | 19 Apr 2015 5:37 p.m. PST |
I have both the Saleh and the older Persian range and they seem pretty much the same size to me.
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aynsley683 | 27 May 2015 5:53 a.m. PST |
Ok now I need some Persian levy Chalybes mountain spearman. From some research ( at least in one source ) I found they had padded armour with a skirt of twisted cords, greaves, helmets and a 20 foot spear. Now if true not sure I can match it but am thinking of Arab type spearman where I can preferable change the shield with a hoplite style one. My original idea was some Thracian looking figures with different shields and spears but moved onto Arab types. Any ideas, I saw some gripping beast moor and Nubian I like the look of but the shields are cast on. The rest of the Persians are the Salahes foundry figures, got the Cv nigh on done with some foundry Karadakes arriving soon. |
GurKhan | 28 May 2015 4:02 a.m. PST |
Minifigs do a Chalybian in 25mm, with the linen armour and cord skirts described by Xenophon: link
- but I don't know any in 28mm. Xenophon doesn't mention any shields, and with a 20-foot spear they probably didn't carry one. |
aynsley683 | 28 May 2015 5:45 a.m. PST |
Will take a quick look, as to the shield hadn't thought about it but should of been obvious as they were carrying a dirty great big stick in both hands I suppose. |