doc mcb | 22 Jan 2015 2:58 p.m. PST |
I have always understood, but have no personal knowledge, that archery is difficult if not impossible in heavy rain, as the bow strings lose tension. Is this in fact true? If so, would the same apply to slingshots? I am guessing not, as the rawhide strings are thicker (I guess) and the impetus for the sling missile does not come from tension on a string but from centrifugal force? What I really want to know if it works in a game to have rain reduce or prevent archery altogether, but leave slings still effective? |
Stew art | 22 Jan 2015 3:25 p.m. PST |
i think you are right about your assessment. however, unless the rules you use make a differentation between slings and bows, I would penalize both equally. -1 shooting all around. one could just as easily argue that rain heavy enough to soak a bow string is heavy enough to limit line of sight. or maybe something like; no archery and slings -1. |
Mars Ultor | 22 Jan 2015 3:32 p.m. PST |
All I know confirms what you said about bows (and I don't fire my recurve in the rain…), but I have no knowledge about slings. There was a forum member who was practiced with a sling a while back. Maybe he'll tune in and answer. I can't think of any battles intentionally started in the rain…I remember a mention of Republican Romans being saved by a sudden thunderstorm, which seemed to end the battle. Slingers are hardly mentioned that much in battle at the best of times, much less what happened if it rained. |
doc mcb | 22 Jan 2015 3:46 p.m. PST |
The rules I am working on will be fantasy or semi-fantasy (Dark Ages with priests and wizards -- the priest of Thor will be able to call lightning) and weather will be a factor mostly but not entirely beyond players' control. So a battle might indeed take place in heavy rain, or fog. Javelin-armed troops will not lose effectiveness in bad weather, while archery is much reduced (by fog) or eliminated altogether (by rain). My disposition is to make slingers an in-between, probably as effective as javelineers. The Saex REALLY want it to rain when they are facing Arthur, as the mud slows down everyone, favoring their infantry army, plus their light infantry have javelins and no bows. |
doc mcb | 22 Jan 2015 3:57 p.m. PST |
I can't think of any battles intentionally started in the rain…I remember a mention of Republican Romans being saved by a sudden thunderstorm, which seemed to end the battle. Me either, but Hannibal certainly used weather as a weapon in his first two battles in Italy, making the Romans fight wet and colder than his troops at the Trebia. And Livy says he counted on the frequent fog to hide his ambush at Lake Trasimene. |
GurKhan | 22 Jan 2015 4:09 p.m. PST |
I have always understood, but have no personal knowledge, that archery is difficult if not impossible in heavy rain, as the bow strings lose tension. Is this in fact true? If so, would the same apply to slingshots? and the wet fog relaxed their bows and slings and the thongs of their throwing-spears - Livy XXXVII.41, on the Seleucids at Magnesia |
doc mcb | 22 Jan 2015 4:11 p.m. PST |
Ohh, thanks, that answers that! Not the answer i was after, but glad to know! |
bilsonius | 22 Jan 2015 7:57 p.m. PST |
I was always impressed by the efficiency with which Kambei of the Seven Samurai uses his bow in the midst of a rainstorm. Was this Artistic Licence or the power of Zen and the Art of Archery? |
uglyfatbloke | 23 Jan 2015 4:14 a.m. PST |
The wind could be a major factor for archery; even a modest crosswind (given the area of an arrow side-on) might well have a major impact. A combination of wind and rain might well explain the rarity of 'classic' long bow battles in Scotland and the north of England. That said, the first – and perhaps most impressive – longbow victory is Dupplin Muir…though the strategic impact was, to say the least, short-term. |
Karellian Knight | 23 Jan 2015 5:50 a.m. PST |
I have shot my bow in a tournament during a heavy rainstorm. The only effect we noticed was having to aim higher as the rain beat the arrows down. We protected our strings using beeswax. |
TKindred | 23 Jan 2015 6:27 a.m. PST |
I have shot my bow in a tournament during a heavy rainstorm. The only effect we noticed was having to aim higher as the rain beat the arrows down. We protected our strings using beeswax. In addition, archers routinely carried more than one bow string. The bows themselves weren't usually strung until there was a chance of battle. All of the bow strings would have been carried in an oilcloth pouch, perhaps a painted pouch, even oiled leather, in addition to being waxed. Archers long ago learned the value of protecting the bow strings. |
doc mcb | 23 Jan 2015 9:31 a.m. PST |
Hmmm. So are we saying we don't trust Livy's account of Magnesia? Because slings would be easy to protect, too, and it still seems to me that their effectiveness would not be much reduced if the sling stretched a little. Accuracy might suffer if the sling changed length, but I'd think it would have to be by a lot? |
doc mcb | 23 Jan 2015 9:35 a.m. PST |
The wind will definitely be a factor for missiles, with direction subject to change. I really WANT rain to reduce archery because archery-deficient armies can benefit. It's not THAT big a deal whether slings are hampered by wet, though it would be neat to distinguish them that way. |
Great War Ace | 23 Jan 2015 10:16 a.m. PST |
Damp conditions generally can affect accuracy by altering the efficiency of a bow or crossbow. But the first shot will be the only real "off" one, then the marksmen will adjust. They might not get a second chance, though, as the Genoese found out at Crecy. A quick shower as they advanced toward the English soaked their weapons down. And the first volley fell short of the English line. Not so, the English counter volley! And the crossbowmen never recovered from that initial devastation in order to shoot effectively. Was it the battle of Towton, in a driving snow storm, that resulted in the Lancastrian longbows being shot down? The wind helped the Yorkists and depleted the range of the Lancastrians. Neither side was deprived of shooting effectiveness because of the damp. I would not alter the effects of missile shot in a game, but I might reduce the available range for wind conditions. That would be a scenario adjustment, however, and not needed as a regular part of the rules…. |
Lion in the Stars | 23 Jan 2015 10:58 a.m. PST |
If you have a composite bow, you may be unable to string it at all when it's raining, as the water weakens the glue joints and the bow will come apart. The Japanese at least lacquered their bows (not sure about Mongolians, etc), so the only issue would be getting the string wet. Lacquer is a completely waterproof coating. |
doc mcb | 23 Jan 2015 11:48 a.m. PST |
Hmmmm again. So we are saying that rain IS a problem for archery, which might be mitigated by preparations such as beeswax and extra strings and lacquer? I'm thinkoing maybe archers in Dark Ages armies don't know all those tricks, though the elves in the fantasy version might . . . ? Otoh, hard to imagine any archers on the rainy British Isles not experienced in dealing with the problem. Well, at a minimum, archers who have to fiddle with replacing wet bowstrings with dry ones are probably firing more slowly? Perhaps I will say that rain reduces firepower by a factor of 1, which will have a very large impact on poorly trained archers and a lesser effect on the elites. |
Parzival | 23 Jan 2015 2:07 p.m. PST |
I would suggest reduced range and effectiveness for both bows and slings, due to the obscuring rain, the effect on bowstrings and arrows in flight, and just the mere fact that everything is made slippery by the rain, too: footing is harder to maintain, sling stones/bullets easier to drop, etc.. So a reduction in rate of fire might be present as well. Of course, the level of rain is key, too. If you've got a torrential downpour going on, a battle, if it even continues, is going to be close-up and personal, because that's the only point when you can see the enemy anyway! |
Shardik | 23 Jan 2015 2:14 p.m. PST |
I thought a slingshot was the projectile (stone or bullet) that was "fired" from a sling ;-) |
Thomas Thomas | 23 Jan 2015 2:17 p.m. PST |
Longbows (well Warbows) do not seem much effected by damp conditions. Dupplin Moor (1332), Halidon Hill (1333), Neville's Cross (1346) are all "classic" longbow victories fought in the north/Scottland. Damp conditions did not seem to have much effect at Crecy or Agincourt. At Towton the snow blinded the Lancastrian archers causing them to unwittingly shoot short. Not so the Yorkist return shooting which seems little effected by falling snow and eventually goads the Lancastrians into a fatal attack. TomT |
MajorB | 23 Jan 2015 3:37 p.m. PST |
Not so the Yorkist return shooting which seems little affected by falling snow Contrary to popular belief, falling snow isn't actually that wet… OTOH, at 2nd St Albans, the Yorkist archers were able to repel the fist Lancastrian attack from imside the buildings in the town – where their bowstrings were dry. |
KSmyth | 23 Jan 2015 8:18 p.m. PST |
In the poor weather at Crecy, the English, according to legend, protected their bowstrings by keeping them under their hats. The Genoese had wet bowstrings so their crossbows were less effective, or so the story goes. |
Sobieski | 23 Jan 2015 9:46 p.m. PST |
How far can one trust Livy on any subject? |
Great War Ace | 23 Jan 2015 10:41 p.m. PST |
A hemp bowstring coated in beeswax is not the same thing at all as a crossbow cord made of gut. The former is not affected by the damp, the latter is greatly impacted negatively by the damp. Crossbowmen kept their bow cords safe under protective oiled covers and only removed them at the last minute. Archers kept spare bowstrings inside their hats/helmets. I don't recall this being an expedient to preserve them from getting wet. At Crecy the archers were waiting ready to shoot until the Genoese came within range. The bowstrings did not get brought out and the bows strung in some last minute preparation. Nothing in the sources suggests this. Only the Genoese crossbows are mentioned as having been compromised by the sudden rainfall. And the long range of their shot is what was affected. This would also affect the impact of the bolts, but only dramatically if the damp conditions worsened. A sudden squall isn't going to deeply penetrate the gut cords enough to seriously (if at all) reduce the impact of the bolts. It could, however, throw off a long range cast/volley the first time they shoot, which is exactly what happened at Crecy. Had the crossbowmen had a chance to correct their second volley before getting shafted by the yeomen, no doubt their bolts would have fallen more accurately. But before they could even reload they had already received several vollies of longbow arrows…. |
doc mcb | 24 Jan 2015 4:45 a.m. PST |
Well, the relevant weather card will say "downpour" so we are talking more than a drizzle. That card also makes things muddy, slowing movement, so represents rain of some duration.. I think I shall keep the penalty but mitigate its effects for elite archers. |
Great War Ace | 24 Jan 2015 10:26 a.m. PST |
That seems reasonable. Elites of any type will be less affected by weather. They do their job better than common troopers. That's why they are called "elites". Reflecting/modeling weather is tricky. I can't think of an elegant way, for example, to model the heavy wind and snowfall at Towton. Of course you can simply tell the Lancastrian player that he's taking arrow shot out of the gloam but can't see anything up ahead. That means placing only troops that can see each other on the table. Problematic at best. Yet that single feature of the battle conditions made everything happen the way it did…. |
doc mcb | 24 Jan 2015 12:55 p.m. PST |
I'll be using a card deck. Each player will have a small hand. Cards for things like downpour and fog and thunderclouds and gail (some of those being stackable) along with night for the goblin armies. But also sunshine, which cancels any and all other cards in play. Multiple cards for each, of course. So WANTING rain doesn't guarantee you will draw the card, and when you do get and play it the other side may be able to immediately make the sun come out again. It will necessarily be abstract, but I hope fun with its unpredictability. And for fantasy armies the question of whether it is daytime or night is actually pretty important, of course. |
Great War Ace | 24 Jan 2015 9:24 p.m. PST |
Unless your are underground, of course. :P |
JC Lira | 30 Jan 2015 2:29 p.m. PST |
First off, a slingshot is not a weapon of war -- a sling is. A slingshot is the y-shaped stick that Dennis the Menace keeps in his back pocket. A sling is a leather thong and a stone. Maybe there's a regional terminology difference and some people use the terms interchangeably? A leather thong might relax when wet. I haven't tested a sling in those conditions but my guess would be that the slinger could easily adjust. And there are no feather fletchings to keep dry, no wood to warp, and the falling rain will not beat down a small heavy slingstone or lead bullet like it would an arrow with more surface area and less density. I am not sure how it would go in real life, but I like the idea that a sling is a pretty effective weapon even in a rainstorm that seriously hinders archery. In most contexts, bows are going to dominate slings, so it would be cool to let the slingers have their (rainy) day. |
MajorB | 30 Jan 2015 2:38 p.m. PST |
A slingshot is the y-shaped stick that Dennis the Menace keeps in his back pocket. No, that's a catapult! |
JC Lira | 30 Jan 2015 4:18 p.m. PST |
Yeah, I think there's a regional difference. I'm from Virginia, and here, a ""slingshot" is Dennis the Menace's signature weapon and "catapult" refers to something like an onager. |
Great War Ace | 30 Jan 2015 5:58 p.m. PST |
Around here, Dennis the Menace's "weapon" is called a flipper crotch. With the brace for the wrist, it becomes a wrist rocket…. |
MajorB | 31 Jan 2015 5:32 a.m. PST |
Yeah, I think there's a regional difference. I'm from Virginia, and here, a ""slingshot" is Dennis the Menace's signature weapon and "catapult" refers to something like an onager. Maybe, but seeing as Dennis the Menace is definitely British, it seems only right to refer to his weapon with the British term. You might call it something different but Dennis will certainly call it his catapult! |
JC Lira | 31 Jan 2015 8:58 p.m. PST |
There are two Dennis the Menaces. Both date to 1951, the British one debuted 10 days before the American one -- but amazingly, they are totally unrelated, written and drawn by different artists. The British one is dark haired. The American is blond. Each young ruffian carries an identical projectile weapon. The British DtM has a catapult and the American has a slingshot. This was an interesting little tour through Wikipedia. I never knew the Brits had their own Dennis the Menace. |
MajorB | 02 Feb 2015 3:27 a.m. PST |
I never knew the Brits had their own Dennis the Menace. Ah, but as you point out, ours was the ORIGINAL one! (If only by 10 days…) |