"Panzer-Grenadier Deluxe - can you play at 6mm?" Topic

I like the look of these rules but they clearly seem written for 15mm. I am looking to play 1 stand = 1 section but want to go with 6mm to facilitate the full battalion sized battles.

Is anyone who has read the rules able to confirm if there would be any significant issues to playing with 6mm?

Many thanks

Nick

I played a game in 6mm a while back. Seemed to work just fine with an odd house rule here and there. Not sure how the GM had changed measurements, if at all…

Thanks for the swift reply – what were your impressions of the rules?

The answer is yes, very much so. I have used these with 6mm figures, essentially unchanged, and they work very well. As with FoW (which PG resembles in size and scale) the battlefield looks much better (imho) with 6mm figures at the same ranges used for 15mm. As for the rules themselves, I like them a lot. As I said, they are clearly aimed at the same sort of battles as FoW, and they expect models on FoW style bases. But the rules have some nice mechanisms, and they are very well organised and written.

Thanks John. Would you base AVF's singley or several on a base to represent the "section". e.g 2-3 vehicles on a FOW sized medium base?

What are the lists like? e.g. are they theatre as well as period specific? Are there lists for Italy 1943 for example?

Is artillery off table?

Many thanks

Nick

Yes indeed, in fact, as with most 'larger operational scale' games, 6mm better suits the ground scale. So just use 6mm figures and play as normal.

You can base 2-3 per base if you like, though that's entirely an aesthetic choice and would make no difference to gameplay. Personally, I'd use a single model on an inch-square base.

The lists in the book are absolutely brilliant! The best I've seen in the English language and will probably be preserved for posterity by the British Library!

They're written by some Welshman called Davies…

;)

However, for reasons of space in the book (despite the fact that it's a BIG rulebook), they're limited to Late War Europe (USSR, Germany, USA & UK) and even then, a few battlegroups and especially higher-level support options, had to be omitted. That said, they do touch on Italy Theatre organisational variations in a few places, though a few 'niche', Italy-specific organisations were among those omitted. I know that Dave plans to publish a series of campaign-specific supplements, which will include expanded army lists as well as scenarios.

Yes, artillery is off-table unless there's a scenario-specific reason to have it on table, such as defending a gun-position, etc.

I base mine singly – but I don't use FoW size bases, I have both vehicles and infantry on 1" square bases (infantry typically have about 6-7 figures on a base). This doesn't cause any great issues – in theory it allows you to pack troops a little tighter than with larger bases, but the main effect there would be to increase your risk from artillery. I already have my 6mm troops on those 1" bases for other rule sets, you could of course base them on FoW size bases, you could have more troops and you could do some very nice vignettes.

The lists are fairly sketchy – selective rather than comprehensive. Individual lists are quite good and detailed (e.g. 1944 US Infantry Battalion or Soviet Tank Battalion) but they only cover 1944-45 and I don't think all possible options are included even there. They do have a fairly complete equipment list (vehicles from PzI to JagdTiger, that sort of thing) so you can build your own forces for any period of the war. But they don't copy the FoW style of hundreds of different organisation charts for every army and period.

The (1943-45) orgs that made it into the finished book are:

German:

Grenadier Battalion
Fuesilier Battalion
Volksgrenadier Battalion
Fallschirmjaeger Battalion
Panzer-Grenadier Battalion (Mot)
Panzer-Grenadier Battalion (SPW)
Panzer Recce Battalion
Panzer Battalion
Heavy Panzer Battalion
Independent Panzer Battalion
Assault Gun Company

British:

Infantry Battalion NW Europe
Motor Battalion NW Europe
Para Battalion NW Europe & Italy
Airlanding Battalion NW Europe
Armoured Regiment NW Europe
Tank Regiment NW Europe
Armoured Recce Regiment NW Europe
Recce Regiment NW Europe
Airborne Armoured Recce Regiment Normandy
Airborne Armoured Recce Regiment Ardennes & Germany
Armoured Car Squadron
Flamethrower Tank Squadron

Soviet:

Rifle Battalion
Motorised Rifle Battalion
Motorised Rifle Battalion (Tank Brigade)
Motorised Sub-Machine Gun Battalion
Naval Rifle Battalion
Cavalry Regiment
Medium Tank Battalion (Tank Brigade)
Medium Tank Battalion (Mechanised Brigade)
Tank Company (Rifle/Cavalry Division)
Heavy Breakthrough Tank Company
Flamethrower Tank Company

USA:

Infantry Battalion
Parachute Infantry Battalion
Ranger Battalion
Separate Tank Battalion
Armor Heavy Task Force
Mechanized Heavy Task Force
Cavalry Reconnaissance Squadron (Mechanized)
Infantry Regiment Anti-Tank Company
Infantry Regiment Cannon Company
Tank Destroyer Company (Towed)
Tank Destroyer Company (SP)

There's also a pile of lists for generating your own bespoke battlegroups, including a points-system.

The organisations that are written but didn't make it into the final draft are:

German:

Pionier Battalion
Fallschirm-Pionier Battalion
Panzer-Pionier Battalion
Sturmpanzer Company
Sturmörser Platoon
Regimental Anti-Tank Company
Divisional Anti-Tank Company
Army Anti-Tank Battery
Heavy Anti-Tank Company
Panzergrenadier Regiment Pioneer Company
Armoured Panzergrenadier Regiment Pioneer Company
Grenadier Regiment Infantry Gun Company
Volksgrenadier Regiment Infantry Gun Company
Fallschirmjäger Regimental Infantry Gun Company
Panzergrenadier Regimental Infantry Gun Company
Panzergrenadier Regimental Mortar Company
Panzergrenadier Regimental Motorcycle/Reconnaissance Company
Grenadier Regimental FlaK Company
Panzergrenadier Regimental FlaK Company
Flakpanzer Platoon/Company
Divisional/Army Heavy FlaK Company
Divisional/Army Light FlaK Company

British:

Infantry Battalion Italy
Motor Battalion Italy
Army or Royal Marine Commando
Belgian or Netherlands Motorised 'Brigade'
Armoured Regiment Italy
Tank Regiment Italy
Recce Regiment Italy
Indian Divisional Cavalry Regiment Italy
New Zealand Divisional Cavalry Regiment Italy
Airborne Recce Squadron NW Europe
Independent Parachute (Pathfinder) Company
Engineer Assault Squadron NW Europe
Engineer Assault Squadron Italy
Flamethrower Tank Squadron NW Europe & Italy
Flail Tank Squadron NW Europe
Flail Tank Squadron Italy
Engineer Field Platoon (Infantry Division) NW Europe & Italy
Engineer Field Squadron (Armoured Division) NW Europe & Italy
Airlanding Engineer Field Company NW Europe
Parachute Engineer Field Squadron NW Europe & Mediterranean
Towed Anti-Tank Troop (Infantry Division) NW Europe & Italy
Self-Propelled Anti-Tank Troop (Infantry Division) NW Europe & Italy
Towed Anti-Tank Troop (Armoured Division) NW Europe & Italy
Towed Anti-Tank Troop (Corps) NW Europe & Italy
Self-Propelled Anti-Tank Troop (Armoured Division & Corps) NW Europe & Italy
Airlanding Anti-Tank Troop NW Europe & Mediterranean
Heavy Airlanding Anti-Tank Troop NW Europe
Towed Light Anti-Aircraft Troop (Infantry & Airborne Divisions) NW Europe & Italy
Towed Light Anti-Aircraft Troop (Armoured Division) NW Europe & Italy
Self-Propelled Light Anti-Aircraft Troop (Armoured Division) NW Europe & Italy
Machine Gun Platoon NW Europe & Italy
4.2-inch Mortar Platoon NW Europe & Italy
Wasp Platoon NW Europe

USSR:

Punishment/Assault Battalion
Sub-Machine Gun (Tank Rider) Battalion
Guards Airborne Battalion
Self-Propelled Light Artillery Battery
Self-Propelled Medium Artillery Battery
Self-Propelled Heavy Artillery Battery
Self-Propelled Anti-Tank Battery
Regimental SMG Company
Motorised Rifle Brigade SMG Company
Naval Rifle Brigade SMG Company
Brigade Anti-Aircraft Machine Gun Platoon
Anti-Aircraft Machine Gun Platoon
Cavalry Division Anti-Aircraft Machine Gun Platoon
Anti-Aircraft Battery
Heavy Anti-Aircraft Battery
Regimental Gun Company
Regimental Anti-Tank Gun Company
Naval Rifle Brigade Anti-Tank Gun Company
Anti-Tank Gun Battery
Brigade Armoured Scout Company
Regimental Scout Platoon
Divisional Scout Company
Naval Rifle Brigade Scout Company
Cavalry Regiment Scout Troop
Regimental Sapper Platoon
Tank Brigade Sapper Platoon
Sapper Company
Motorised Sapper Company
Sapper Squadron
Naval Rifle Brigade Mortar Battery
Motorised Mortar Battery
Heavy Mortar Battery
Motorised Heavy Mortar Battery
Naval Brigade Heavy Mortar Battery

USA:

Glider Infantry Battalion
Infantry Division Combat Engineer Company
Armoured Division Armoured Engineer Company
Anti-Aircraft Auto-Weapons Platoon
Airborne Anti-Tank Platoon
Airborne Anti-Aircraft Auto-Weapons Platoon
Airborne Divisional Recce Platoon
Airborne Combat Engineer Company

As you can see, that's quite a heap of stuff yet to be published and they will hopefully make it into supplements before long. If not, I'll ask Dave to publish it all online, via the General de Brigade webpage. Of course, that's before we even get onto other theatres and periods of the war (I've also written a stack of lists for Burma)!

In the meantime, you can always use the orbats provided on the Battlefront: WW2 page fireandfury.com, as they're set at the same organisational scale. Just add platoon commanders to taste and away you go!

John,

Fair comments, but FoW publish them over a large number of books and pdfs. Dave has only thus far published the rulebook, which includes as many orbats as he could (roughly one-third of the book is lists), so give him time.

The published battlegroup lists include all the possible permutations that I could discover that existed WITHIN a particular organisation. I'm pretty confident that I covered 99% of unit/formation variations from the norm. For example, the British Armoured Regiment orbat has no fewer than 15 notes, indicating possible organisational variations.

However, the external attachments from regiment, brigade, division, corps, etc, assets were largely omitted due to lack of space and as mentioned, will be included in future supplements or on the GdeB website (I've just listed them above).

Oh, I also wrote a massively-expanded equipment list for Dave, but there wasn't room for that either, so that will also appear in the future, I have no doubt.

(Sorry Dave, for not pulling my finger out re scenarios…) :(

Sounds great! I've had a look at the official 3 design thoughts but have only been able to track down a couple game AAR/Reviews. A couple of questions -

How long would a Battalion sized game take (assuming familiarity with the rules) – such as Hill 112 from the scenario books?

Are the old scenarios usable as is or is there a quick conversion guide to the new rules?

Any period expansions actually in the pipeline (rather than just "planned")?

Is there a forum?

Many thanks for all the info.

Cheers

Nick

Oh, and how do they compare to Battlefront (Fire'n Fury)for speed of play, playability and feel?

I'll have to let experienced players answer that, as I've only played a couple of test games while it was still in development. I thoroughly enjoyed the games and the speed/feel felt very similar to Battlefront: WW2 (probably somewhat quicker), though I'm happy with BF: WW2, so haven't really felt the need to change, to be honest.

:)

Dave roped me in to sort out the army lists and some scenarios. That said, I don't see any problems with using the old BGPzG scenarios as written. You can also convert the BF:WW2 scenarios with little difficulty.

I'll drop Dave a line, so hopefully he'll chip in here. I know he's very keen to crack on with further books and I'm keen to help, but we both have jobs and other commitments, so I'm not sure if there's a particular timescale. He was hassling me for Normandy scenarios a few months ago and to my eternal shame, I haven't had much time to help him out.

In the meantime, the forum is here: generaldebrigade.fr.yuku.com

Thanks Mark.

Great to see some Burma lists on the horizon also.

The lists are already written. Just need to stick some scenarios together that I haven't already published under the BF:WW2 flag.

Loughton Strike Force band (featuring big Dave on drums) easily play out a PG scenario in the time it takes to drink 3-4 pints.

Or so I've been told …

In Dave's case, that must be 3-4 days… ;)

JF,

I heard that!!

Nick B,

Take a look at some of these AARs.

link

link

link

link

link

Hope that helps.

DB

Dave – many thanks for the AAR reports. However, doesn't really help with the fundamental question regarding 6mm.

I note for example that in one forum question it mentions a negative fire factor for rotating a turret – not really feasible at 6mm….

Just to restate my questions from above:

1. Are there any significant issues to playing with 6mm?

2. How long would a Battalion sized game take (assuming familiarity with the rules) – such as Hill 112 from the scenario books?

3. Are the old scenarios usable as is or is there a quick conversion guide to the new rules?

4. Any period expansions actually in the pipeline (rather than just "planned")?

Many thanks

Nick

Nick,

We play Deluxe in 20mm, but I will give my answers to some of your questions.

1. 6mm could look quite good in these rules. A section of 10 men could actually be represented by 10 figures on a base etc. However, the turret facing rule, which I don't like even in 20mm, will be a big problem I feel.

2. We usually play a battalion sized force attacking around a company of defenders. This takes about two hours or so to fight.

3. We have gamed scenarios from v.2 and from the Battlefront website. You will need to work out the appropriate number of company command stands to add, but generally it is a straightforward thing for gamers with a little experience.

N,

1. Are there any significant issues to playing with 6mm
As DH says, no real issues. As for the turret facing simply ignore turrets and stick to the arc of fire – if you AFVs are within arc of fire fine, if not then apply the -1 fire modifier.

2. How long would a Battalion sized game take (assuming familiarity with the rules) – such as Hill 112 from the scenario books
Agree with DH, depending on assets fielded, anything from 2-4hrs.

3. Are the old scenarios usable as is or is there a quick conversion guide to the new rules? All still usable, you now ignore the Company HQ's listed in the orbat as each army now has its own ratio to arrive at the number of HQs fielded.

4. Any period expansions actually in the pipeline (rather than just "planned")?
The rules actually cover the entire period from 39-45. It's only the orbats that are limited to the late war. The plan is to produce a scenario Battle Book for each significant period including scenarios, appropriate orbats and a possibly some of those "special" rules! However I'll have to finish off Imperial Sunset 1813-14 GdeB Vol. 6 first!

Any probs just ask on the GdeB PanzerGrenadier forum or email me direct.

DB

Thanks Dave – I have ordered the rules and really look forward to getting on the table.

Cheers

Nick