"Captured Burgundian flag - real or fake depiction?" Topic

Supposed to have been captured by Jeanne Hachette
link

Do anyone have an idea what the source is, which the picture of the banner come from?
link

Have you clicked on the "Detailed Information" link? Engraved by E H Langlois du Pont de l'Arche after a design by Willemin, published in "Collection Michel Hennin. Estampes relatives à l'Histoire de France" vol.2. I can't find a publication date for v2 but link shows v1 was published in 1877.

At link is included a discussion of the "Fete de Jeanne Hachette" of 1891, an annual event. It notes that the original flag survives but in a very poor state, and includes a small drawing which is not very detailed but looks just like yours. So it looks as if the original was around to be copied by Willemin & Langlois.

However, I am slightly suspicious of the crossed arquebuses; my first instinct is that it may be a misunderstanding of the typical Burgundian cross raguly. Even if there were handguns in the original, these look a bit too late in style for the 1470s. So a copy of an original flag, but perhaps not a 100% accurate copy?

Is the figure Saint Lawrence, with the grill of his martyrdom, or someone else?

My first reaction was to the crossed atquebuses as well. Those look much too late to be 1470s. I am however not an expert.

The flames and the flint/steal device suggest a very strong connection with the family of Charles and yet only he and Antoine could really have those emblems being the sons of Phillipe. These went out of use when Mary inherited.
The crossedguns are plain wrong.
Have you identified either set of arms?
The Hat above the arms seems out of place. It is a 'red Chapeau' usually the mark of an archbishop (different to the sort of cardinal hats one occaisionaly sees) OR more confusingly it could be some variation on a version of a 'Cap of Maintainance' which appears on full arms of the king of England.
No senior churchman springs to mind

I also wonder at the inclusion of Je Lay Emprins almost in small print. If the flag belonged to one of his troops it would dominate the fly. I have never seen a personal flag, belonging to another notable, having two mottoes on it.
And who does the other arms belong to?
As to the 'look' of the whole, it certainly looks like a good copy of the style of flag as it ought have looked
You have an interesting one there!

OK, I've now – by Googling "Drapeau de Jeanne Hachette" – found some new evidence that has changed my view a little.

At link is an 1850 article discussing the "Jeanne Hachette" flag as preserved at Beauvais. (As with other old JSTOR articles you can download the pdf free.)

The main coat-of-arms, within the collar of the Golden Fleece, is described as having sixteen quarterings, including the arms of Castile, Leon, Austria, and others that would not have been on a Burgundian flag in 1472. The author therefore concludes that the Beauvais flag is a 16th-century Spanish flag – which does make the arquebuses more convincing. The sketch appended to the article is close enough to the engraving linked to in the original post to make it almost certain that they are versions of the same thing, though the engraving simplifies the coat-of-arms to four quarterings instead of 16, and replaces the royal crown with, as Wyeayeman suggests, some sort of cap of maintenance.

So I now think that this is a not entirely accurate rendering of a 16th century flag mistakenly associated with 1472.

"The flames and the flint/steal device suggest a very strong connection with the family of Charles and yet only he and Antoine could really have those emblems being the sons of Phillipe. These went out of use when Mary inherited."

The flames and steel are shown in the Ashmolean Pavia painting and many times in the Weisskunig pictures.

The 'cap' seems to be a rendering of a ducal crown as shown in many of the arms of the Hapsburg lands.

The lion is described in Gurkhan's link as the lion of Flanders but the colours are completely wrong and it is crowned. It is possibly the lion of Leon. The lion is crowned – which fits – and gules could be used instead of purpure.

The eagle shield might be something to do with Sicily going by the colour and the single head.

Swampster. they may very well be on the Pavia painting and elsewhere, but in the Burgundian context could (should) only be borne by direct relatives of Phillip the Good.
They were his declared devices.

You said they went out of use with Mary's inheritance but are shown used by the forces of her husband and grandson (who was of course a direct relative of P the G).
Whether they shouldn't have been carried is one thing, but we have evidence that they were being carried 50 years after Charles the Bold died.
See

or the bard presented to Henry VIII

Spain carried on using it for a long time just as they still use the golden fleece.

The lion is described in Gurkhan's link as the lion of Flanders but the colours are completely wrong and it is crowned. It is possibly the lion of Leon. The lion is crowned – which fits – and gules could be used instead of purpure.

That assumes the Willemin/Langlois picture has the colours correct, of course: the flag was probably a bit faded by the time they came to copy it. And the sketch in the article does not show a crown. The Willemin/Langlois colours would be correct for Limburg, but then the lion should be two-tailed.

SWampster I know where you are coming from with the continued use. This was done largely to reinforce the grandsons entitlement to the Burgundian lands in Heraldic language. In Charles' time only he and his brother could bear those devices on there banners. Cant speak for misuse after Charles death, but in his lifetime thats the way it was. There are some banners in the Swiss museums which have been mis-ascribed to the Burgundian Dukedom because of these emblams.

Thank you for the help in unravelling this little puzzle.

I'll put it down as a 16th Cen. flag as GurKhan suggests.

But I will use the picture of the saint for the standard of the 20th company.

The look would fit a style like this.

Looking at other Burgundian flags depicted in the "Burgunderbeute" (an exposition in Bern 1969 of remaining items and records of lost, well documented in a book), some of the crossed bars of fire-irons look indeed like late 15th century arquebus with their hackbut butts, and the ornamentations can be taken for mechanics once your peceptions is set to see them that way. If the flag was copied to later 15th century it could be an honest attempt to make sense out of the remaining shape. The saint and insciption are repeating patterns on other flags.

While the guns are plain wrong, imho it may come from an original where these guns are an abstract cross.

BTW: It could be a "Kornettfahne", so a flag for a unit of Gensdarmes. The triangle shape however indicated a much shorter flag – on the other hand Charles changed a lot during his career, and the assortment of flags lost at Grandson could be different from that used four years ago, so I would not put that much into differences or similarities.