"Painting Sung Chinese " Topic

I've picked up some Curtey's Sung/Song Chinese. Not very familiar with Eastern armies. I have armoured and unarmoured packs of each type of infantry. Would infantry units be a mixture of armoured and unarmoured types or would they be all of one type? Not sure whether to mix the packs or not.

Thanks for any help.

TAG used to host a PDF article by Chris Peers about the Song, but you may now have to register on their website in order to see it:

link

The following is an excellent article on the Song/Sung army by Chris Hanson. Appearance, weapons, tactics and training is discussed from about half way down the page onwards:

link

The first part of the article deals with the siege of Xiangyang which some may be familiar with from the very over-the-top "Marco Polo" Netflix TV series…

Some illustrations of Song Dynasty troops and others:
link

link

You might also find some of the following discussion relevant:
TMP link

The Scribd document looks excellent except… I need a translator to read it. I think the Song soldiers start around page 67 of the document (pg 61 of the actual book).

Oh to read Chinese! (or to have a translation ;) )

The section on the Song is pages 115-134 of the actual book – you can tell because of the dates in the top right corner of the page; Song = 960-1279AD

Likewise:
Sui (581-618AD) pages 74-82
Tang (618-907AD) pages 83-106
Wu Dai (907-979AD) pages 107-114
Liao (907-1125AD) pages 135-142
Jin (1125-1234AD) pages 143-149
West Xia (1032-1227AD) pages 150-154
Yuan (1206-1368AD) pages 155-168
Ming (1368-1644AD) pages 168-189
etc

This has more info:
link

Can be very confusing because many features of Chinese armour changed very little over hundreds of years…

When the Northern Song dynasty was originally founded, "Regular army soldiers were all issued body armor and helmets" (Peter Lorge's dissertation at link p.52). This may never have applied to lower-status provincial and militia units, however.

Thanks everyone for the suggested reading. Some great resources. Still not exactly sure whether I should mix the two types (armoured and unarmoured) together. If GurKhan's source is correct then the likelihood is not to mix.

I agree it's probably best not to mix armoured and unarmoured although there's evidence for mixing weapon types within units at certain points over the long Song period. It seems a bit unclear as to who wore what and when but Peter Lorge's assertion seems a good starting point. I think Curteys and TAG were probably hedging their bets somewhat by producing both armoured and unarmoured.

I recommend the Fields of Glory army lists "Empires of the Dragon – The Far East At War" even if you don't intend playing FoG. There's some interesting historical discussion of troop types and has sample lists for both Northern (960-1127) and Southern (1128-1279) Song periods.
link

I've been looking for this reference, and at last:

"Nong Zhigao was confident of the ability of his infantry to face the local Song forces; the Song military establishment in the south had been seriously neglected because of the critical problems in the north. Many cities were without fortifications and the men of their garrisons frequently had no armor."

- this is link from an article by Jeffrey Barlow on the Battle of Kunlun Pass in 1054.

It's a counterpoint to the regulation situation, mentioned in my previous post, that Imperial Army troops should have armour: clearly, that ideal was not always met. Of course, garrisons are likely to have been of a lower status than the central field army, and not so well equipped. Lorge's dissertation suggests that the Northern Song troops were originally divided into the central Imperial Army, lower-status Provincial units, and militia troops; these southern garrisons may well have been Provincial units. If I had to guess, I'd say that Imperial troops would all wear armour, militia mostly wouldn't, and maybe provincials might be a mix?

And that's without even considering the Southern Song, about whom I know much less. That's the problem with a dynasty that lasts 300 years and rules a subcontinent: plenty of room for variation!

Thanks for the information Durruti and GurKhan. It really is helpful.

"The section on the Song is pages 115-134 of the actual book – you can tell because of the dates in the top right corner of the page; Song = 960-1279AD"

Those are good eyes! I would never have seen those dates if you hadn't pointed them out.

Some comments…

Re the book – remember this is a pirate copy, you can buy copies online relatively cheaply.

The author was costume director at the State Opera when he wrote this.

As Duncan (Gurkan) is pointing out, the recognised norm was that soldiers should be armoured. Caveats are that by the time of the Song armies could be vast and the armouries in each city were not limitless. Also, at various times irregular troops(some ex bandits, some 'private' armies, some revolutionary groups and several over sized militias) were used alongside regular troops. Military support to Southern, coastal provinces was severely restricted as merchant and peasant groups were known to be cooperating with the 'pirates'.

There was also a significant difference in armour, weapons, discipline and pay; between the 'Imperial Guard' and other troops. This was a deliberate policy, maintained even when the State was fighting long hard wars against Liao, then Jin then Yuan forces from the North.

Tom..

Adding to the armour issue one must also take into consideration the importance of military families in the Southern Sung. The wealthier families were able to equip more of their troops with armour than those with less wealth. The regional armies were augmented by various groups of people already mentioned above. A good example of this is the Tso-I Army in Fu-chien. With the later Southern Song period the imperial army was the best equipped, but was sadly neglected and didn't deploy on a regular basis.

Peter Lorge wrote an article on the significance of Wen and Wu with the Song Dynasty. He didn't publish it, but I have a copy of the article (somewhere). He has written several good pieces on the Song Military: two books and his dissertation.

Another informative source was written by Alvin Chin-Wai Chung "Aspects of the Systems of Military Logistics during the Song Dynasty: the procurement of horses, military agriculture colonies, and the imperial ordnance industry".