"French Infantry shako pom pom for 'colour' party 1815" Topic

Can anyone advise on the colour of shako pom poms for the French infantry 'colour' party? I understand this was composed of a junior officer with the eagle/fanion and NCOs. I have read on several sites that officers and ncos would have white pom poms, so would all those in the 'colour' party essentially have white pom poms?

Try this site:
link

Perhaps the part "etat-major" can answer your question ?

Yes I had looked here but am still confused (probably because my school boy french is not really up to it)

The 'etat-major' for the regiment are indeed all with white pom poms, but the battalion 'etat-major' have a mixture;

the 'priemier porte aigle' and 'chef de battalion' are white
the 'sergent-majors' (I assume the 2nd and 3rd Pote Aigle) and 'caporal-fourrier' (making up most of the rest of the colour party) are a mixture of blue and violet (or 'brown'? it looks different to the colour shown for the violet of the 4th Company else ware).

Now if NCOs are meant to be white shouldn't they all be white? Or did NCOs actually have the colour of the company they came from, so would it depend on where the NCOs had originated from? Or were they always a mixture from the 2nd and 4th company? or is it in fact brown for the 'caporal-fourrier' and this is a colour of pom pom specific to them ? etc…

The NCOs would carry the distinctions of their parent company from where they were drawn. Many regiments dressed their 2nd and 3rd porte-aigles as grenadiers with those distinctions. The remainder of the eagle guard (i.e. the rear two ranks of three men each) were drawn from the caporal-fourriers of the battalion and thus would have a mix of company distinctions. (As a comment, this latter practice did not help unit administration as the eagle party was always an attractive target and casualties could be high.)

that sounds reasonable, so white pom poms for battalion NCOs is a red (ahem) herring?

An NCO carries the same pompom as the rest of his company.

With the exception of the Eagle/fanion guard (within the 1st company) which draws NCOs from other companies.

That's right PT which I think the Colonel's comment confirms. However, I think that the eagle guard deploys on the right of the 2nd fusilier company (after 1808 at least).

In the diagram in Atkins Waterloo book it is between the 2nd and 3rd fusilier company (2nd to right 3rd to left) in the centre of the Battalion

sorry – artilleryman is correct, the Eagle/fanion is with the 2nd company of the battalion indeed (the blue pompoms company).

G'Day Gents,

Gordon is correct, the 2e compagnie always took charge of the Regimental Colours…as did the second battalion in the field, then later to be returned back to the 1er bataillon.

This is because the senior battalion commander always commanded the second battalion and youngest commander always commanded the 1er battalion.

Best Regards
Art

Apparently this seniority distribution came from the time when in the Revolution the second battalion was ex-Royal regular whitecoats, and the first and third battalions were blue-coated conscripts and volunteers.

G'Day Gordon

Actually even before that; this principle of positioning can even be found during the 7YW with Brigade Commanders, to include order of battle of Brigades and battalions.

Best Regards
Art

Art,

"This is because the senior battalion commander always commanded the second battalion and youngest commander always commanded the 1er battalion."

Will we say this is true when we look at the formation of the 6e bataillon in 1811 (the 5e being the dépot)? I think these were mostly sent out with new-minted chefs de bataillon, and I don't know of any exchanging of commandants when joined with the régiment in the field.

However, we also have the oddity of the major en 2e and the formation of a brigade from the 5 bataillons de guerre of 1 régiment. So perhaps the rule of "junior commandant in the senior battalion" was more or less applied twice – to two sets of battalions???

Any comment would be appreciated.

- Sasha

Bonjour Alexandre…

It is always nice to hear from you.

The chef de bataillon did not change due to the arrival of a senior officer.

As for the major en second…Napoleon first orders the creation of the major en second when he orders the regiments with 4 bataillons de guerre, and has the colonel command the 1er and 2e bataillons and the major en second commands the 3e and 4e bataillons.

Later with the creation of an additional bataillon de guerre, Napoleon on the 1st of September, orders that the colonnel shall command the 1er, 2e, and 3e bataillons, while the major en second commands the 4e, and 5e bataillons.

Somewhere it is given in l'ordonnance…I thought it was given in the tableaux synoptiques des manoeuvres d'infantrie 1810…but I did a quite look and it must be in Napoleons correspondence…no it must be with Bardin and I shall look it up later.

But I do know that the senior commandant is with the 2e battalion…junior commandant with the 1er bataillon and the commandant au milieu de tableau was with the 3e bataillon.

L'ordonnance de 1838 reversed the old ordonnance and placed the senior chef de bataillon with the 1er bataillon.

Best Regards
Art