""Prussian" Artists?" Topic

Hello Historical Gamers,

I've been searching for sources which depict Prussian forces of the SYW era in action, as well as providing more detail of the uniforms and kit.

I've identified five different artists whose work seems to pop up again and again. I'm wondering if you can tell me more about the more obscure of these individuals (the ones without Wikipedia articles), as well as a little about where one can find more of their work on display. Also, if you can recommend a definitive work or two on the subject containing the works of these artists. And lastly, what other artists can you recommend who depicted the Prussians of the Seven Years' War in action?

They are as follows:

Richard Knötel
Carl Röchling
G. Dorn
Hugo Ungewitter
Adolph Menzel

Beware, self promotion……me:

link

link

Giuseppe Rava,
Fantastic work. Do you do commissions?
If yes, will you contact me at nigbil at free.fr
Cheers
Nigel
18thcenturypress.com

Rava

From the point of the artist really superb, but some shortcomings on the uniforms and equipment

You show summer uniform – on snow – instead of winter uniform
The musket slings – attachment is certainly wrong for Old Prussian muskets
sit of hats, have to be oblique instead of pure transverse
Too short waistcoats – they are of 1780 Menzel style.
Gaiters are too high, they ended just over the knee cap.

as for Richard Knötel, he was a famous artist and the founder of the Uniformkunde plates which modernised the research and depciton of uniforms, he consulted a lot of contemporary picture manuscript and also did depict soldiers in field dress. There should be plenty of him on google.

Menzel did a superb series of plates about the Prussian Army of 1780 working with existing coats of that date as well as a lot of surviving equipment and weaponry, cut of cloth however is of about 1780, Prussian army looked different in 1756

In case you like to invest in a state of the art book, then go for

Hohrath, Daniel : Friedrich der Große – which shows numerous photos in colour and contemporary pictures

Grommet, if you have time to waste, Total War forums can be worth scanning through, for example:

link

page 5 in the thread has an example of contemporary artwork and some discussion about the proper tricorne shape and size. Unfortunately many of the pics on the forums have been dropped by the image hosting site.

@ von Winterfeldt,

What I find annoying the most in painting military history and I do only this, it's the obsession for the smaller details of some experts.

For instance: the way to bear the hat?…….in battle?…..under heavy fire? But did you ever serve?
I served, and in action that's not so "precise", believe me please.

Thank you for the "superb", anyway.

G.Rava

Dear Grommet37

Just put in "Images of the Seven Years War" on MSN and you will get more than you bargained for. Try specific battles and Frederick the Great, and so forth. You'll be buried in them.

As for folio sets or compendia of the works of the artists, good luck. You can check the book-store of the War Museum in Vienna and they might have books for sale.

Dear Maestro Rava,

as a great admirer of your work, and while I can understand your frustration, may I ask you to please avoid the "did you even serve?" argument – you're only doing yourself a disservice. Modern military service has about as much to do with that of the mid-18th C. as, well, a flintlock musket with today's automatic weapons.

The Prussian tricorne was cocked assymmetrically, in order not to interfere with certain drill movements, and yes it would have sat that way, even in an attack (conducted slightly less fast perhaps than you depict), being fastened to the soldier's hair queue.

Art Lovers:

I found the full name for G. Dorn, it is Günter Dorn.

Rava,

Nice work. I was aware of your work from some FIW research I did last year. I'll definitely look for more.

von Winterfeldt,

Thanks for the notes, and clarification, as well the book suggestion. I'll look for it.

thehawk,

Appreciate the forum suggestion. Will do.

OSchmidt,

Duly noted. Luddite that I am, I enjoy a book. I have been overwhelmed by the volume of such images, but I would like to wade through them now in a more organized fashion than the randomness of the infodump image search. Thanks for the hint re: the War Museum in Vienna. Good start.

Musketier,

Historical notes are always helpful. Thanks.

Cheers to all. I am finding it quite useful to include some of these "Prussian" artists in my search for the Frederician "legacy", if you will. I wonder what the libraries have or will loan…

Back to the OP, Knötel's work as you're probably aware is available here (mostly),
link
but covers much more than the Prussian arm, and the whole time period from the 1660s to the 1860s.

The Dorn/Engelmann books on Frederick the Great's Infantry and Cavalry depict both arms regiment by regiment and in considerable detail. They are still on the market I believe and ought to be available through your library.

A more detailed and complete study of the Prussian army is that by Hans Bleckwenn. The hardbound edition is hard to find (at least I haven't managed), but the slightly abridged, "luxury paperback" version sometimes comes up on eBay.

Don't forget about the Polish artist Wojciech Kossak and his awesome take of the charge of the Charge of the Prussian Garde Du Corps at Zorndorf, Now property of the Potsdam Museum – formally on display in the casino of the Garde du Corps officers in Potsdam .
Link:
link

Its my 'molto drama' absolute favorite.

Cheers,
Christian
crogges7ywarmies.blogspot.com

Dear Musketier,
if you call me Maestro to introduce specious critics, please abstain from it.

They charged less fast like this?:

or this?:

or maybe this?:

And concerning the fastened hats, how could some soldier loose them in battle or how could these guys hail the king, raising their tricorns? They tie and untie them again and again?

Okay,if you guys are going to fight I will start skipping threads…

Guiseppe Rava, you stand beside Knotel.

I like to think that I am not a flatterer, nor am a lover of "sweet words." Still, I truly admire your work.

Jeff

@ Jeff

Thank you.
Giuseppe

Sorry for the bad blood in this thread but the pictures are wonderful.

I have a volume of Kossak's paintings by Olszanski. It contains the SYW paintings.

If one is interested in accuracy, get the two volume work by Hohrath, Daniel : Friedrich der Große. It contains superb photos of existant uniforms for each Prussian regiment. I can throw away my collection of Museum visit photos that I have taken since 1970!!

I would hope that an artist would accept a critique as useful to future works, and actually be thankful someone took the time to care. One should visit the Company of Military Historian discussions over correct depictions of uniforms among some of the most well known military artists (including the younger Knotel). Very harsh, but always civil.

Alright, Mr. Rava then, since we're on an English-language forum? I certainly did not set out to give offence, and am sorry if you took umbrage at my words.

I'm afraid however that the late 19th C. artists you show represented 18th C. attacks like the ones they could see during autumn exercises outside any Prussian garrison – in the age of citizen soldiers with breechloader rifles, when tasctics had evolved somewhat. This detracts nothing from their artistic mastery – nor yours.

Indeed, an "authentic" depiction of 18th C. tactics might be seen as rather boring: To the best of my knowledge (from period manuals and eyewitness accounts), in the age of the flintlock musket infantry attacks were conducted at no more than a brisk walk. Anything faster would have disordered the ranks, meaning the officers would have lost any control over the unit.
The movie "Barry Lyndon" recreates such a scene quite convincingly, and for that reason has often been referenced here on TMP.

"I would hope that an artist would accept a critique as useful to future works, and actually be thankful someone took the time to care. One should visit the Company of Military Historian discussions over correct depictions of uniforms among some of the most well known military artists (including the younger Knotel). Very harsh, but always civil."

I subscribe to that, Richard Knötel, as well as Carl Röchling, did paint as best as they understood in the late 19th century, but form that research moved on, should we just ignore that or find windy excuses for any lack of serious study according to the best of knowledge of today.

In case you look at Carl Röchling, he did plates in Die Königin Luise – in his early work he gave the Prussian soldiers perucssion cap muskets, despite this surprisingly they lost at Jena and Auerstedt.

He did however progress and without any doubt some person must have told him that percussion muskets were not carried around 1806 for Prussian musketeers.

In case of the Prussian water bottle, in the old works, even in extremly serious studies is was doubted that it still existed (Kling for example) – but then Bleckwenn unearthed such specimens in the collection of Schloß Forchtenstein and found out that it was bigger than considered and that usually only one per tent comradeship was carried, dimension all etc. given.

Now in case a diligent military artist – would he ignore such interesting information or go after artist paintings 120 years ago.

The same of winter uniform versus summer in one Knötel shows the winter uniform – in the other summer.

About the sit of the hat – and yes I did serve in the military, I doubt all those paintings, and indeed it is easily done in two dimesnions that they could sit completly transverse on the head, there the brim was in the way when the musket was shouldered and a more oblique was had to be worn unless one it tossing the hat off – when shouldering a musket.

Knötel, as well as Röchling took – the excellent study of Menzel as reference – not – as many did – to fail to realize that Menzel did paint according 1780 style uniform where for example the hat – and as well the cut of waistcoat, coat was different to 1756.

This is also well discussed in the book by Daniel Hohrath.

I also agree with Tricorne about the usual attacking pace of Prussian infantry.
The artist in a lot of cases however want to present drama and ignores any historical knowledge just to present his artistical point of view of drama – usually – exceptions proove the rule.

And I also agree with

"Alright, Mr. Rava then, since we're on an English-language forum? I certainly did not set out to give offence, and am sorry if you took umbrage at my words."

And from my point of view – no bad blood intented.

@ Musketier

Barry Lyndon???? Are you discharging Carl Rochling for a movie done in the XX° Century? Besides, the last moment of the british charge isn't shown in the movie's scene.

Please, move on……no bad blood at all, for me too.

Auf wiedersehen.

@Tricorne, von Winterfeldt

I wont argue with you any longer, but let me tell you one thing, you belong to that kind of people that when someone points out the beauty of the moon, you look only at the finger.

The gaiters were one inch shorter? Are you joking, isn't it?

Out of 99% things correctly done, you emphasize the 1% in your opinion wrong, like you were on the battlefields of XVIII° Century, but you weren't there for sure.

I'm sorry but the Art isn't interested in you, maybe the manuals.

No fight at all. Auf wiedersehen to you too.

P.S. When I paint there's always an expert like you who approves my work, then why should he be less reliable than you?….ah, no answer needed, of course.

@ von Winterdeldt: could you elaborate on the differences between the Prussian summer and winter uniforms?

My impression was that black vs white gators was the only difference. Probably the coat was worn with the front lapels buttoned together and the turnbacks were unpinned. Are there other distinctions?

@ the tricorn hat. The gentlemen are correct: the tricorn was turned a few degrees to the left so that the musket would not hit the back left corner of the hat during some of the Manuel of arms maneuvers. I don't consider it a big deal and note that no figure manufacturers tilt the tricorn in such a manner.

The British army wore their hats the same way for the same reasons. I suspect that most other countries did so as well – just common sense.

Many of the 19th Century war artists took consider license in how they depicted the troop formations. Accuracy was not always their best trait. For example, the Kossack painting of Zorndorf depicts the RUSSIAN grenadiers wearing Prussian style uniforms and mitres – clearly not correct, but this does not detract from the heroic looking painting. Gunther Dorn sometimes depicts his SYW Russians wearing 1812 kewers, LOL.

"heroic" is the key term. Remember, the artists were trying to appeal to their patron's sense of nationalism or depict an image that the public would want to see in a museum.

I doubt that the Prussian infantry broke into an all out charge otherwise the officers would have lost their control over the regiment during the battle.

The other thing, the public expects to see the soldiers charging, just like modern Hollywood always has exploding shells in 18th Century battles because the director knows that the public expects to see explosions rather than rolling cannonballs. To Hollywood and to 19th Century artists, it is the show or the sizzle that sells the steak.

I like the Rava picture shown in this thread and I wouldn't nitpick the details.

@ Der Alte Fritz,
thanks.

This' a contemporary drawing (just one, but I could show many) of fighting soldiers with tricorne and they could have the same problems with muskets' drill, but it seems they didn't give a damn about the angle degrees.
I think Minifigs did too much damages to the wargamers' imaginary.

About the prussian winter dress, the Blandford book says that, apart from the black gaiters, they had so few overcoats, that they used to wrap around their body the furs obtained from the austrian grenadiers' captured busbies. A shining example of dress' regulation, isn't?

Best,
Giuseppe

Von W, has the Hohrath book got any pics of the SYW dreispitz? I have previously looked on the image gallery of the DHM site but can only find pics of mitres.

Regarding charging with musket, from what I have read it wasn't done. The troops were extremely reluctant to engage in hand-to-hand combat. They were more likely to halt and start firing. The weaker force usually fell back before anyone charged anyway.

There have been motion studies of the ability of medieval soldiers to charge. The expert said that it is difficult to charge with any weight on a limb – arm or leg, weapon or armour – and maintain balance and stamina. There is a leverage effect of the weight, 30kg weighs 60kg. It is necessary to keep the weight as close to the body as possible. Weight on the back is OK.

And considering that SYW troops were little guys with a nearly 6' long musket and bayonet, jam-packed together, running with a musket (especially loaded) would not be smart. The Prussians were known for their discipline and drill.

Troops possibly advanced like the left figure here, Barry Lyndon-like.

Having said that, I like the Leuthen art a lot and the Preiser running Prussians.

And the Poltava scene in Sovereigns Servant shows troops jogging into contact.
YouTube link

@thehawk

The fact that they were reluctant wont mean that they did never charge.

That's an account of the battle of Denain, 1712, by Guillaume Lasconjarias, researcher at the Ecole Militaire Française:

"Villars adapted the tactic to the the terrain. Rehabilitating the column, he preferred the choc to the firing. In the best french tradition of the "Furia francese" they charged the Dutch, whom panicked and fled"

Re the oblique angle of the tricorne – was this done just by the rank and file with muskets? Or did it also include command figures, eg NCOs, officers, standard bearers, drummers, etc?

Cheers

Re 'Charge of the Prussian Garde Du Corps at Zorndorf' by Kossak, aren't the Russian grenadiers basically Prussians painted green? eg wrong mitres, etc?

I had that painting as my computer desktop display for a while. It's a stunning piece of art.

There's another painting side-on depicting charging Prussian cuirassiers vs Austrians I think. That would also make a great painting for the study. I'll post a link if I can find it. (Or someone may beat me to it…)

Cheers

the oblique angle of the tricorne – was this done just by the rank and file with muskets? Or did it also include command figures, eg NCOs, officers, standard bearers, drummers, etc?

Cheers

All of them, obviously, for solidarity.

I ask because I'm more familiar with the Austrians. eg The Austrian 1749 Regulations show all infantry including command with the oblique tricorne. Safe to 'presume' this practice was carried out by soldiers of most European nations then – including their cavalry (for fashion-solidarity)?

Here's the painting of the charging Prussian cuirassiers that I mentioned:

Cheers

Once again, I'd like to thank the many generous contributors to this discussion. Very edifying. Cheers.

From the little that I have read about these subjects so far:

Regarding seasonality, I note here that it occasionally snowed in April and even the first few days of May, while the troops sometimes enjoyed fine weather as late as October or November, even in the midst of the Little Ice Age, or as they knew it, "What We're Used To".

Regarding the infantry charge, it was often doctrine, depending on the commander and the situation. IIRC, according to Nosworthy the entire Ordre Profond school of thought of the French army believed that the way to decide the issue was for the infantry to close with Cold Steel (see Anatomy of Victory). IIRC, this was initially Frederick's position as well, even with the excellent Prussian firing systems. IIRC, according to Duffy, Prussian infantry was ordered to dislodge defenders – with shouldered muskets – although I can't remember the engagement, I'd swear it was uphill, even though, again, they had an excellent platoon-firing system, even firing by half-platoons when the situation arose (see FtG: AML and the SYW Osprey Campaign titles). Lastly, in situations like Zorndorf, where the Russians simply would not stop fighting, or Leuthen, when troops in fortified defense would not give way, repeated infantry charges were attempted to decide the matter. At Kolin, it was the repeated infantry charges that began to bend the Austrian line in the middle, before it could be outflanked at the end. Also, when the infantry was being fired on by support troops, like Croats in cover or a battery of artillery, the incentive to approach more slowly fades away. I can't remember the exact engagement, but there is at least one 18th Century occasion of the infantry charging enemy cavalry that allowed friendly cavalry to escape (or possibly rally). Might be WSS or WAS, though.

Regarding the cavalry charge, I believe it was Frederick, but it might've been de Saxe or Warnery, who declared that cavalry that couldn't charge a thousand yards was worthless. By this time, Prussian cavalry was expected to charge at the gallop, knee-to-knee, swords extended at their enemies' faces, at ever-lengthening distances. (Again, see Anatomy of Victory.)

Speaking of Prussian cavalry, here's a piece by Adam Hook from a book I just read:

The Prussians are in… yellow. I know in recent eras they used silhouettes of tanks and planes for spotting and identification. I wonder what they did back in the day. It's no wonder they fired on friendly troops. Besides the dust and the smoke, they all wore all kinds of different uniforms when they were from the same army, yet sometimes they wore really similar uniforms to a unit in an "enemy" army (blue coat with red turnbacks, anyone?). Hard to see the pattern on the regimental lace at 100 yards. No wonder they carried those giant flags.

Just read this topic and great to see for the first time the 2 paintings of the charge of the Garde du Corps and the Prussian cuirassiers and also those figures from Preiser. Shame they don't make them in 28/30mm.

This' a contemporary drawing (just one, but I could show many) of fighting soldiers with tricorne and they could have the same problems with muskets' drill, but it seems they didn't give a damn about the angle degrees.
I think Minifigs did too much damages to the wargamers' imaginary.

Rava, sorry but the image you posted to show fighting in the street is a C19th version of this C18th pamphlet

It depicts the 'Boston Massacre'in 1770 and was engraved by Paul Revere. Out of interest Don Troiani rendered his interpretation of the unit (29th Foot IIRC) thus:
link

The Troiani version show how the cocked hat was worn so as to be out of the way when the manual exercises was performed

Snowcat,

Where did you get that image of the Prussian Cuirassier charge? I haven't seen it since I saw the original(?) for sale in Wilnitsky's Gallery in Vienna over ten years ago. The painting is both large and magnificent, and I did some not very conclusive research for the gallery trying to identify the incident it portrayed (if indeed it was a historical incident). It was labelled as showing a charge at the Battle of Rossbach, but I believed that to be incorrect, as the uniform appears to be Cr No5, Margrave von Brandenburg-Schwedt, which was not present at that action. The enemy's uniforms are very old fashioned in cut, which made me think they might be Russian rather than Austrian. My best guess was that it showed a charge at Zorndorf (largely because of the lack of distinctive terrain which might be expected had it been intended to represent the regiment's attack at Kunersdorf. Do you have any further information on the picture, or its current whereabouts?

Mollinary (intrigued!)

Hi Mollinary

I found it on this site (scroll down):

link

I don't know anything at all about this picture unfortunately, but I'd be keen to learn what you find out. :)

Cheers

@ snowcat,

I'm near certain that above Carl Röchling or Knötel Gouache illustration of the Prussian cuirassiers charging depicts a scene of the battle of Rossbach. I recall seeing it in a book with a respective caption. The unidentified poor routing horsemen are supposed to be French cavalry.
Uniform details for both sides aren't really dead on authentic. Considering the flaws by those two artists in other illustrations – I'd strongly opt for Rossbach.

Cheers,
Christian

Thanks Christian. The routing horsemen are French eh? That would make sense for Rossbach certainly.

If it was painted by Knötel, the book you saw it in wouldn't be this one by any chance would it?

I'm guessing not (I don't own a copy and the cover art is watercolour vs the painting style of the cuirassiers), but it would be good to track this down if you've seen it in a book.

There is an artist's signature in the bottom right corner of the cuirassier painting – now if I can just zoom in and read it . . . !

In this painting by Knötel:

… you can clealy see his signature. So far it does look like the last 2 letters of the sig in the Rossbach painting end in 'el' . . .

?

Cheers

I also zoomed onto the signature – it may be Knötel. I was unable to verify this. The resolution is too bad.
In any case, this painting isn't oil on canvas, but it is rather Gouache/ watercolours on cardboard. I've seen others of this sort. This was commissioned illustration work for publishing purpose then, rather than a unique piece of art for museum display.
If you look at my Blog at
crogges7ywarmies.blogspot.de
and klick my March 2014 article of my Schweinsberg wargame I have another one by Knötel. This is likewise watercolours. Its only approx A3 paper size. Not large at all.
The signature of my Knötel image looks a little different to the one on the Rossbach painting. So, it may not be by Knötel.
I do not remember where I saw it. It wasn't the book you suggested for sure.

Cheers,
Christian

The Prussian cavalry charge picture appears on the cover of the book Die Schlacht bei Rossbach ….by Claus Reuter, 2011.
Since it appears without attribution, the accuracy of any of it is still a question.

I agree it's not looking like Knötel. His signature is consistently upper and lower case, whereas this one appears to be all upper case. It could end in "EREL"? This sure is a tricky one to identify and track down. Various Google combinations have pulled up just a few images of it, and none of them identifying the painter.

Will keep trying.

BTW Christian, those recent SYW French commanders (flats) on your blog are beautifully painted.

@ Tricorne1971 – thanks for that. Here's the cover:

Cheers

Got it!

Artist:
Carl Becker
(German, 1862–1926)*
Title:
Motiv aus dem 7 jährigen Krieg, die Schlacht bei Rossbach am 5.November 1757
Medium:
Oil on Canvas
Size:
140.5 x 237.5 cm. (55.3 x 93.5 in.)
:)

link
link

*There are at least 4 Carl Becker (artists). One Carl J Becker was a military artist. link
Strangely, the Rossbach painting does not feature on that site.
However, it seems more likely that this Becker (also German and born in 1862 but died in 1934) is the actual artist of the Rossbach painting, not the maritime artist (Becker) who died in 1926. A possible error by artnet.

Cheers

@snowcat,

Good hunt. Good sport. You traced it. Not sure on the oil on canvas, though.
How did you manage this one? Good job. Thanks a lot.

Thanks to Tricorne1971, I tried 'die Schlacht bei Rossbach', and there was a fresh image of the painting a little way down on the Google image results. It took me to the artnet page.

I do believe they have their Beckers mixed up though. :)

Cheers

Nice string-learned a lot-thanks

Hi Guys,

I can confirm both the Artist as Carl Becker and the fact that this is a large oil on canvas. By an amazing chance, I discovered my original notes on the painting inside my copy of Dorn and Engelmann. As I said, I saw the original in a Gallery/shop in Vienna ten years ago. It was elaborately framed and about eight feet wide, if I recall correctly. Sadly it's cost was many thousands of Euros beyond my resources. I offered to try and find some more detail about the regiment depicted, and discovered that it was not present at Rossbach. The attribution to Rossbach was included at the time, but it struck me as odd that the artist would have invested so much effort on this canvas, with such accurate representation of the uniform of a known regiment, when that regiment was not present at the battle. I suppose it must remain a mystery.

Mollinary

Happy to help. :)

And well done on finding your original notes. :)

Cheers

Mollinary

Does the Rossbach painting show Cr No5 or No3?
No 5 had sky blue facings and a black eagle emblem on their horse clothes. The painting seems to show dark blue facings and a FR cypher.

Cliff

Edit – Just found a bigger blow-up of the painting. It does look to be CR No.5

I wonder if Becker just got the uniform details wrong?