"1944 SS panzer dicisions recee battalion" Topic

I have been trying to find an organisation for this without much luck. I am sure i must be googling wrong!

I am interested in organisation down to squad level, with vehicles used and the company numbering so i can mark up my vehicles correctly.

Thanks Leigh

link

Thanks majorb, I had found that page, but it only lists panzer recce battalions. My concern is that the ss would use different kit or even a totally different org.

It also doesn't say what the company numbering would be which i also need

there was no official difference between the aufklaurangs abteilung in a Heer panzer division and an SS one. Of course, there was a wide variety of equipment used, even among Heer panzer divisions.

For the period late '43 on, I believe the company numbering was:

1. Armored cars (1 heavy AC platoon, 3 light)

2. armored or motorized infantry (either in 250-type halftracks, or in kubelwagens

3. heavy weapons (light infantry-gun platoon, anti-tank platoon, pioneer platoon).

There was also a HQ company, which included a heavy AC platoon.

Thanks. So they are the same. How are the companies numbered?

See my updated post.

I think they may have had an extra company or two by Normandy – certainly at some point in '44 they got a second armoured car company, and possibly a second infantry company too.

Yes, don's information does not apply to 1944.

For example, Zetterling shows 9th SS as having five companies in its Recce Bn.

Yes, the 44 battalions had a staff company (with the actual armoured cars), an 'armoured car' company with 20mm armed Sdkfz 250s, a couple of panzergrenadier companies and a heavy company.

Actual equipment varied from one division to the next (like who got the Pumas etc). You need to look at the records for each division, but as usual Zetterling is a good start.

Section/platoon/company organisations were pretty standard though.

The SS weren't really organised any differently, though while there was a common theme, every panzer recce battalion in Normandy was organised differently to the next. Sometimes the differences were minor, though they could occasionally be fairly major.

As has been mentioned, the typical structure was:

1st Company – wheeled armoured cars. Often a mixture of Sdkfz 221, 222, 223, 231 (8-rad) & 233. Some of the 221s had 28mm PzBchs fitted.

2nd Company – Halftracked armoured cars. Lots of Sdkfz 250/9 armoured cars with Sdkfz 250/5 as patrol leaders' vehicles.

3rd Company – Light Armoured Recce. Basically an armoured panzergrenadier company mounted in Sdkfz 250/1. Platoon leaders usually had Sdkfz 250/10. There might also be a section each of 2x Sdkfz 250/7 and/or 2x 250/8 support halftracks.

4th Company – Medium Armoured Recce. A fairly standard armoured panzergrenadier company in Sdkfz 251/1. Platoon leaders usually had Sdkfz 251/10. Again there might be a support section each of Sdkfz 251/2 and/or Sdkfz 251/9.

5th Company – Heavy Armoured Recce. A fairly typical armoured panzergrenadier heavy company with platoons of Sdkfz 251/9, Sdkfz 251/2, towed PaK 40, pioneer platoon in Sdkfz 251/7, towed 75mm infantry gun platoon and maybe a flamethrower platoon in Sdkfz 251/16 and/or a 'Stuka zu Fuss' section.

The only SS panzer recce battalion to have Sdkfz 234/2 Pumas in Normandy was 1st SS, though they didn't have a full company of them (IIRC, it was a large platoon attached to the Bn HQ?). The two main users of Puma were 2nd Pz Div and Pz Lehr, though 116 Pz Div also brought some Sdkfz 234 variants (such as Sdkfz 234/3) with them to Normandy.

9th Pz Div had Pz IIL Luchs instead of armoured cars in one of the armoured car companies.

17th SS Panzer Recce Bn had no AFVs, so instead used lots of Schwimmwagens, Kubelwagens and trucks.

21st Pz Div used Sdkfz 250 variants in both the 3rd & 4th companies.

There were lots of other variations – particularly in the ratio of different wheeled armoured cars used.

It was often the Pz recon battalions that had the forward air controller (Flivo – Fliegerverbindungsoffizier) attached, usually riding in a Sdkfz 250.

Only the Germans would have towed anti tank guns and artillery pieces with a recon unit :)

British Recce Regts did as well (though their artillery, in the form of M3 GMCs, was SP) :)

10th SS Recce Bn – as above with these variations:

1st Company had around 12x Sdkfz 222 light armoured cars, 6x Sdkfz 221/223 scout cars and 6x Sdkfz 232 heavy armoured cars.

The 4th Company was another Light Recce Company instead of Medium.

Both 3rd & 4th Companies had a support section of Sdkfz 250/7. No Sdkfz 250/8s. They also each had a large MG Platoon with 6x MG42 sMG.

The 5th Company was quite light compared to some, with only a Pioneer Platoon, an SP Howitzer Platoon with 4x Sdkfz 251/9 and a section each of towed 75mm leIG and PaK40.

2nd SS Recce Bn variations:

1st Company was very weak, with roughly two platoons of Sdkfz 223 & Sdkfz 222. The unit may not have even made it to Normandy and was in any case disbanded in July 1944.

2nd Company was also very weak, with roughly two platoons of Sdkfz 250/5 & Sdkfz 250/9.

3rd Company included a Section each of Sdkfz 250/7 & Sdkfz 250/8. No SFMGs that I can see.

4th Company was a second Light Recce Company instead of being a Medium Recce Company. Organised identically to 3rd Company.

The 5th Company had a Pioneer Platoon, an SP Howitzer Platoon with 6x Sdkfz 251/9, a PaK 40 Section, a 75mm leIG Section and a Section with 2-3x Sdkfz 251/1 sporting an ad hoc 20mm cannon (I don't know if these were flak guns – some units mounted 20mm cannon in lieu of MGs, but they couldn't be elevated to use as flak). I seem to remember that these were ex-French 20mm guns?

21st Pz Recce Bn variations:

1st & 2nd Company were reversed, with the halftracked armoured cars in 1st Company and the wheeled armoured cars in 2nd Company.

2nd Company had roughly equal numbers of Sdkfz 221 & 222 – around six of each. Some of the 221s were fitted with 28mm PzBchs. They also had 8x Sdkfz 231 (8-rad) and 6x Sdkfz 233.

3rd & 4th Companies were both Light Recce Companies. Both had a Heavy Platoon with 2x Sdkfz 251/2 and a SFMG Section in Sdkfz 250/1. 3rd Company also had a Cannon Platoon with 6x Sdkfz 250/1 sporting pintle-mounted 20mm KwK in lieu of MGs. These were not flak guns.

5th Company had a Pioneer Platoon, a PaK 40 Section, a 75mm leIG Section, an SP Howitzer Platoon with 6x Sdkfz 251/9 and a Flamethrower Section with Sdkfz 251/16.

12th SS Recce Bn variations:

As with 21st Pz Recce Bn, the 1st & 2nd Companies were reversed, with the halftracks in 1st Coy and wheeled in 2nd Coy.

2nd Coy had only 2-3 Sdkfz 222, plus roughly 8x Sdkfz 223, 6x Sdkfz 223 (8-rad) and 2x Sdkfz 231 (8-rad).

3rd Company included an MG Platoon with 4x SFMGs mounted in Sdkfz 250/1, plus a Section each of Sdkfz 250/7 & Sdkfz 250/8.

4th Company was another Light Recce Company and was organised the same as 3rd Company.

5th Company had a Pioneer Platoon, SP Howitzer Platoon with 6x Sdkfz 251/9, PaK 40 Section and 75mm leIG Section.

Massive Thanks all, I ordered Zetterling last night as seems to be essential to have in ang good library!

leigh

This has been an exceptionally informative insight into recce resources. I'd like to thank everyone for supplying the relevant information. Recce organisation is especially of interest to me.

Again thanks to everyone for sharing.

Steve

just for further enlightenment, is it just possible that a recce unit would be further reinforced with additional armour, possibly from the regimental HQ when reconnoitre into a "hot" area ?

Steve,

No worries, I've got more stuff knocking around for the rest of the Pz Recce Bns in Normandy, but not had a chance to look for it, sorry.

Yes. For example, the 9th SS Pz Recce Bn was paired up with the 102nd SS Tiger Bn during its move from the Orne valley to block the British 11th Armoured Division's advance on Vire, during Operation 'Bluecoat' (Kampfgruppe 'Weiss', I think? Or was it 'Graebner'?).

The 12th SS Recce Bn was also paired up with armour shortly afterwards, as things got dicey east of the Orne (Kampfgruppe 'Olboeter'?). They also worked with Jagdpanzer IVs and other armour during their battles against Canadians and Poles east of Falaise.

The 21st Pz Recce Bn was also paired up with armour (Pz IVs and/or Hotchkiss StuGs) from Kampfgruppe 'Luck' during its battles with 6th Airborne Division shortly after D-Day.

Jemima,

Thankyou for the additional info. Look forward to seeing any other info. available.

Kampfgruppen were often built around the recce battalion, since it was something of an all-arms team already and often included armored infantry.

As above, it was common to use the armoured infantry element as an extra panzergrenadier battalion (iirc the armoured car companies were often spared this indignity).

As such, they would frequently form the core of an additonal armoured kampfgruppe. There were instances too of the recce battalion being reinforced, but still in is recce role, one example being 2nd Panzer Div in the Bulge which attached a company of Panthers and an SP(?) artillery battery to the recce battalion on its death ride to Celles.