"Slowly starving French?" Topic
15 Posts
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xxxxxxx | 12 Jan 2015 9:25 a.m. PST |
Very interesting article by the esteemed Paul Dawson on the caloric and nutritional value of French and British rations: PDF link It turns out that French rations were inherently rather insufficient, and British rations markedly less insufficient. For comparison, Russian rations were rather similar to British. Daily issued rations for Russian soldiers and non-commissioned officers …. 600 gr pounds bread (substituted by hard-tack "bisquet" on campaign) 200 gr meat (may be salted/smoked/jerked on campaign – substitute fish on religious meatless days) 400 ml (about 300 gr) dry cereal (typically buckwheat – for making porridge …. basic Russian breakfast – oh, how much do I prefer oatmeal!) 20 or 40 gr salt 300 ml vodka, snapps, cognac, etc. or 400 ml wine, beer, ale, etc. (not supplied in Muslim or Buddhist units) These were transported on a large company provision wagon (1 per infantry company), and were re-supplied by the Army quartermaster service. Tea and sugar were bought from the artel', which also grew vegetables, kept dairy cows, etc. – a sort of collective mess for about 25 soldiers which operated as a co-operative farm and small business selling the soldiers labor and handicrafts. Judging by ration issues from later in the century, when the artel' system was much reduced, the Napoleonic era artel' was meant to provide daily rations of …. 300 ml cabbage 300 ml peas 1200 ml (about 800 gr) potatos 40 gr oil or butter Plus 1 or 2 eggs per week Each artel' had a cart to transport supplies. The re-provision of these supplies on campaign was, naturally, uncertain. - Sasha |
serge joe | 12 Jan 2015 9:44 a.m. PST |
The russians were eating dark bread mixed with straw at austerlitz? greetngs serge joe |
serge joe | 12 Jan 2015 9:47 a.m. PST |
The russian infantry were eating dark bread mixt with straw acording of widnesacounts greetings serge joe |
serge joe | 12 Jan 2015 9:48 a.m. PST |
russian army that is? greetings serge joe |
deadhead | 12 Jan 2015 10:06 a.m. PST |
The information on the French is very well researched but will hardly surprise anyone. Every account stresses that the French lived off the land and seized what they needed. That does much to free you from supply lines (for food anyway) but does not win hearts and minds amongst the locals. It also fragments units as undisciplined individuals are forced at each halt to wander off in search of sustenance. Wellington's insistence on supply and severe punishment of plunder was expensive (even for a smaller army) but did avoid provoking guerilla warfare. Again, for a smaller army, with command of the seas, that was a luxury he could afford |
xxxxxxx | 12 Jan 2015 10:48 a.m. PST |
serge, "eating dark bread mixt with straw acording of widnesacounts" What are the witness accounts? Thanks, By the way, the usual bread in Russia was (and to a great extent still is away from Moscow, Petersburg and a few regional cities) nothing but "dark" – the wheat flour is unbleached. ============ deadhead, Well, yes. But the French rations were way under the physical requirement even in peacetime. Effectively, the French planned to never fully provide needed calories and nutrition to their troops – even in garrison in France. The deficit just got worse on campaign. And very much worse on campaign in poorer areas (Spain, Poland, Russia, Illyria, south Italy, Egypt …. actually everywhere but well-developed Dutch, German and northern Italian regions). And if you read much of the secondary source material, you get the opposite impression – the French military as the most scientific, professional, based-on-merit, excellent staff work, etc., etc., etc. - Sasha |
Tango01 | 12 Jan 2015 11:24 a.m. PST |
Interesting. Thanks for share. Amicalement Armand |
serge joe | 12 Jan 2015 11:48 a.m. PST |
serge, Eating dark bread mixt with straw acording of widnesacounts" What are the witness accounts? coignet one of them marbot and may be others?greetings serge joe |
xxxxxxx | 12 Jan 2015 12:15 p.m. PST |
serge, Without even getting into the discussion of the reliability of these two famous "memoires" …. Not in Marbot : link Not in Coignet : link Coignet does say that the French guard gave bread to the Russian guard at Tilsitt, implying that their own ran out due to the length of time the two units were situated on either side of the Niemen, attending the meeting of their monarchs. "may be others?" Maybe not? But, i will be happy to check any others, of course. - Sasha |
deadhead | 12 Jan 2015 12:26 p.m. PST |
Had not, I must admit, considered that this also applied in peacetime or in garrison…….scurvy lot, les poilus….now we know why…literally! It does make for good reading, although I think confusing osteoporosis with osteomalacia. The former is old ladies on steroids, the latter is Rickets! Amazing then what they did achieve. Those that made it, walked to Moscow and back, to Madrid and the Portuguese border from the Netherlands. Look at the ground Bulow's Corps covered in 1815, over a few days. I take hours in a Brussels hotel, in a hot bath and then the bar, to recover just from walking Wavre to Plancenoit……on tarmac, with no one trying to kill me when I get there. |
xxxxxxx | 12 Jan 2015 2:11 p.m. PST |
deadhead, I take the same régime to restore myself after watching my wife running a half or full marathon or doing a biathlon course. She's rather healthy, you see. And she is infecting our daughter with the same enthusiasm for exertion. For me, improved cardio health would be keeping it under a pack of cigarettes and 375 ml of hard liquor per day – and walking to the garage instead of having the car brought around to the door. Goals I do not usually achieve. :-) I am sure that the French had alternate/additional resources in peacetime – or they would be incapable of actually entering into a campaign. I assume it was private purchase. But the overall picture is not favorable to French military organization. - Sasha (whose wife accuses him of being "un homme d'une admirable lenteur") |
basileus66 | 12 Jan 2015 3:45 p.m. PST |
From the article: ‘Hardtack' made from flour and water (and a pinch of salt) can contain up to 100 calories per 10g. Therefore 550g of hardtack could provide 500 calories (approximately). Either my maths are really, really bad, or probably there is a typo somewhere, because 100 calories per 10 grams means that 550 grams would provide 5000 calories not 500! Perhaps it is 100 calories per 100 grams? There is a more acute problem with the article, though. The archeological evidence provided is not contextualized. How long had been on campaign before they died? Were they veterans or conscripts (notoriously weaker and more prone to disease)? How it compares with analytical data from mass graves from other armies? I concede it is an intriguing subject, but I wouldn't reach too many conclusions from that paper until further research is done. Particularly, comparative research beyond theoretical army rations… I would say that many British veterans would have snort with derision if someone would have told them how much better their rations were compared with those of the French! |
ochoin | 12 Jan 2015 5:27 p.m. PST |
The article also ignores how many drummer boys the starving troops ate. link See Zamoyski |
dibble | 12 Jan 2015 7:27 p.m. PST |
To get an interesting overview of the diet of the British army and the daily lives and background of those that served in the army under the Duke, from 1808-1814, the book to get is surprisingly a wholly American publication called 'All For The Kings Shilling' by Edward J. Coss. I for one, highly recommend it. link Paul :) |
1968billsfan | 13 Jan 2015 4:13 a.m. PST |
Having just done some research on "how high is a wheatfield" let me offer the following on "dark" versus "white" bread. Rye is a tall, cold weather grain that grows well in the northern European coastal plain, starting about Holland and stretching into European Russia. It give the dark bread and is lower in gluten, so the bread doesn't rise and is heavy. Think pumpernickel bread. Wheat grows south of there and gives the baguette. |
stoneman1810 | 13 Jan 2015 7:54 a.m. PST |
Alexandre – I once had the urge to exercise, but I went and laid down until it passed. |
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