Leadjunky | 11 Jan 2015 3:18 p.m. PST |
What figures would be suitable for the last battles in the 16th century for the Livonian forces and the Swedes? |
Prince Alberts Revenge | 11 Jan 2015 5:03 p.m. PST |
Probably mercenaries similar to French Wars of Religion: Lansknecht and Reiters. I asked about this for 15mm: TMP link |
IGWARG1 | 11 Jan 2015 5:13 p.m. PST |
Agree, same as everywhere else in Western Europe. Since this is close to Poland you can also use Poles and Tartars as mercenaries or Livonians with their clothing styles. Not a lot, just few models mixed in here and there. |
Daniel S | 11 Jan 2015 6:07 p.m. PST |
Agree, same as everywhere else in Western Europe. Actually not since the majority of the native Swedes wore their own style of fashion and all troops hade developed diffrent equipment choices than those found in Western Europe due to nature of the war. Those diffrences would be very visible by the time of the last battles fought in the 16th C in Livonia. By the 1590's and the final phase of the Russo-Swedish war in Livonia cavalry had abandoned armour except possibly some of the offiers though helmest could still be worn given that the sources generally speak about the abscence of armour for body i.e cuirass rather than the complete abscence of armour. Infantry was likewise unarmoured and you would have found no pikes among either group, the foot was now all shot except for a limited number of halberds used by the Swedes. |
Don Sebastian | 11 Jan 2015 6:15 p.m. PST |
Daniel, and would the livonians be equipped as the Swedes? Would they dress as north germans of the time? |
DisasterWargamer | 11 Jan 2015 6:31 p.m. PST |
Some good information in Gush's work link |
IGWARG1 | 11 Jan 2015 9:52 p.m. PST |
Daniel S, I never found any evidence that dress in Sweden during that time was any different from anywhere else in Western Europe. Armor or not is another question. |
Daniel S | 12 Jan 2015 5:56 a.m. PST |
IF you are limited to English language sources I'm not surprise given the esoteric nature of the subject and the often somewhat narrow focus chosen even by specialised costumes historians writing in English. There is also often a focus on the upper classes of society when Europe in general is covered which creates an impression that clothing was more similar across Europe than it was. In reality there was no such thing as a single style of "Western European dress", particularly not among the common people and this was very noticable once you got to fringe areas such as Sweden or Finland.
Swedish peasant men and women from the early 1600's based on paintings from 1602 and 1609 and from diffrent parts of the country.
Notice the long wide trousers that were not found common use in "Wester Europe" yet had been the standard choice for men in Sweden in diffrent forms since the Viking period. In 1502 German Landsknecht Paul Dolnstein drew very similar trousers when he depcited the Swedish peasant levies he fought while in Danish service, the only change in a hundred years time is that the trousers have gotten a bit shorter and now expose the stockings a bit. 3 of the 4 men are from the wealthiest part of the peasant class, their felt hats and ruff collars show of their wealth by introducing items that were usually found among the upper classes and here form a part of their finest clothes worn only to church on Sunday or on special occasions. They wear buttoned doublets that show outside influence as well but the style is still notably diffrent from that found in the Netherlands or Germany. The last man is an old poor peasant who wears a simple tunic that is basicly early medieval in appearnce, the only changes is that it is shorter and more narrow. Compare the above Swedes with these Dutch peasants and burghers from 1602 and the diffrence in apperance is striking.
The rank and file of the native Swedish units which completly dominated the army in the 16th Century were draw from the peasantry in the shape of men who enlisted voluntarily or were conscripted into service, the later became the basic form of recruitment as the long war with Russia in the east ground on for a total of 25 years until 1595. For the most part the men wore their native clothing and had clothes sewn up in the same style and eyewitnesses noted their diffrent appearance well into the reign of Gustavus Adolphus. The appearance only changed when finished clothes were issued rather than cloth something which was basicly unheard for the infantry in 1570-1595 due to the increased cost. Officers were diffrent, they were recruited from a wider variety of backgrounds and viewed themselves as military professionals who had a mantain a proper apperance. Hence they much more closely followed the clothing fashions found in Northern Germany which was the main source of influence on Swedish clothing for the "middle classes". |
Daniel S | 12 Jan 2015 6:01 a.m. PST |
Don S, The Livonians followed Swedish patterns of equipment and were dressed in the fashion popular with the Baltic-German population and nobility. With at least a part of the Baltic Germans being wealthier than the typical Swedish cavalry trooper (Livonians served almost exclusivly as cavalry) they could aford more expensive items such as better quality swords and more pistols and carbines. (Wheellock weapons were expensive to say the least) |
IGWARG1 | 12 Jan 2015 8:04 a.m. PST |
I've seen images of late 16th century soldiers with loose but shorter trousers resembling those Swedish peasant trousers. Possibly Spanish, not sure. I also just painted some from unknown to me company, so I don't know what range they came in. |
Druzhina | 12 Jan 2015 9:39 p.m. PST |
Daniel, This image:
and the next also appears on the Slaget Vid stångebro site as being Swedish peasants and burghers, from "Gustav II Adolf och hans folk" by Göte Göransson. What is the original source of these pictures? Are they different types of Swedes rather than Dutch or are they mistaken? Druzhina Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers |
Daniel S | 13 Jan 2015 3:38 a.m. PST |
Druzihna, Well there is the authors text on that very image which does say that the figures are taken from a Dutch painting from 1602 which "Slaget vid Stångebro" seems to have missed. The "Slaget vid Stångebro" website was made back in 1998 by one of the schools in Linköping were the battle was fought as part of the 400 year anniversery of the battle IIRC. Lots of errors in both text and images, the weapon page is illustrated with a sword that is from the Great Northern War, soldiers are illustrated using the famous De Gehyn prints and so on. (Text also claims that the cavalry was "mostly nobles" which is plain wrong since the Swedish cavalry had long since switched to mainly recruiting from the yeomen) |
Druzhina | 14 Jan 2015 12:01 a.m. PST |
Yes, I see the caption says it is a Dutch painting, but what is the subject? Those in trousers appear to be from the same source – that does not make them Dutch. What is your source for these 3 paintings? Do you have the caption on the painting with trousers? A book titled "Gustav II Adolf och hans folk" would not be expected to have pictures of Dutch, but, could have pictures of Swedes by a Dutchman. Druzhina Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers |
Daniel S | 14 Jan 2015 4:17 a.m. PST |
Not only does the book have pictures of Dutch, it has pictures of Cossacks, Croats Danes, English, Germans, Poles, Russians, Scots and Tartars as well. The book covers a wide range of subjects connected to the reign of Gustav Adolf including the dress and apperance of nations that the Swedes came into contact with as enemies, allies or trading partners between 1594 and 1632. The similar in style is of course due to being drawn by the same illustrator (in this case the author,Göte Göransson). Like most illustrators he redraws the figures in his own style rather than keeping the style used in the original painting(s) which served as the inspiration for the image. The orignal used by Göte G for the Dutch is the "Kermesse" by David Vinckboons which today is in "Statens Museum for Kunst" in Copenhagen
Vinckboons later turned the drawing into several paintings and prints including the known as the "Grand Kermess" which today is part of the collection of the National Museum in Szczecin. Some figures may be taken from those other paintings. Between the fact that "Kermesse" were not celebrated in Sweden and the fact that Vinckboons never visited Sweden we can be fairly certain that the figures are not Swedish peasants and burghers. But the clothes follow the style seen in other paintings of Dutch from the same period. The pictures of the Swedes are from entirely diffrent sources, most of the figures are from a series of paintings from Gotland dated 1609 while the poor peasant is from Jämtland and dated 1600. |
Daniel S | 14 Jan 2015 5:55 a.m. PST |
IGWARG1,
I've seen images of late 16th century soldiers with loose but shorter trousers resembling those Swedish peasant trousers. Possibly Spanish, not sure. I also just painted some from unknown to me company, so I don't know what range they came in. The way you describe them it sounds like this type of knee lenght open breeches that appeared late in the 16th Century and were seen up to about 1610 on some soldiers.
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IGWARG1 | 14 Jan 2015 9:00 a.m. PST |
Daniel S, Exactly! Also, it seems that sailors from all over had similar styles and different lengths of breeches. There is also an Osprey illustration on Armada campaign that show 3 Spanish officers in 3 different styles of clothing. Not the ones that your excellent Swedish illustration have, but shows the variety of styles available during that time and individual choices that could be afforded. Also, the peasant on the right is 100% Russian peasant looking. |
Druzhina | 15 Jan 2015 6:41 p.m. PST |
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