"Stalingrad German Panzers" Topic

as some of you know, I am currently building a Stalingrad force based on the lists in the Third Rapid Fire Supplement. It requires several German Panzer III and IVs, but I am unsure as to what types of each were being used in Stalingrad (despite my best effort to work it out…). I am sure there is someone in here who can point me in the right direction. The lists state:

HQ: Panzer III Command
Tank Company: 2 x PzIII (Long 50mm)
1 x PzIII (Short 75mm)
Tank Company: 2 x PzIV (Short 75mm)
1 x PzIV (Long 75mm)

Plus what types of Marder III were used at Stalingrad? Again the lists tell me:

2 x Marder III (75mm)

I assume these are the Sd.Kfz. 139 types?

Any help?

Every picture of a Marder I've seen at Stalingrad was of a Marder II (sdkfz 132 variant).

The 24 panzerr lists PzII,and Panzerbefelswagen also,as late as
Oct.
Other units seem to have had Sturmgashutz
Also the special unit of panzer four with the150mm gun in a casement(only I believe 12 were fielded)

idontbelieveit, thanks for that, maybe it is a typo in the supplement that states Marder III.

ashauace6970, yes, I have the StuG units covered, for the scenario lists I am using there are only Panzer III and IV mentioned. I was just wondering what Ausfs would have been present in October 42.

Both the short and long PZ.IV and the Long 50mm and early 50mm

The most common variant of the Panzer III would have likely been the ausf J or ausf L for the long barrel 50mm.

The short barrel 75mm would be the ausf N, though part of me wants to think very few would have made it to Stalingrad, as I think they were mostly sent to North Africa first in 1942.

The Panzer IV short barrel is most likely the ausf F1, and the long barrel could be either an ausf F2 or ausf G (the muzzle break is the major difference at wargaming scales).

Here's a bit on the ausf N:

link

HTH

~iPaint

"Also the special unit of panzer four with the150mm gun in a casement(only I believe 12 were fielded)"

The sIG33b; 12 at Stalingrad and 12 elsewhere on the Eastern Front later: 24 total. On a PzIII chassis.

This was a mixed time of transition for German armor. Approximate frequencies of German panzers in the Stalingrad area, summer '42:

PzKw IIf X
Pz IIIg XXXX
Pz IIIj XXX
Pz IVe X
Pz IVf2 X

And some 38(t)s with 22 Panzer Div on the flanks.

Thanks for that info chaps, very useful!

Abwehrschlact,

I have a copy of 'Death of the Leaping Horseman', which you really ought to get if you want detail on 24 Pz Div etc.

It lists tank strength by type and gun length, but not by Ausf., at many different dates. So your model needs will depend upon what point in the campaign you are starting. It also states that Panzerjager Abteilung 670 was equipped with Marder II with the Russian 76.2mm gun.

If I can help you further then please PM me.

Thanks deephorse, that looks like a great source. I shall seek out a copy.

The scenario that I am taking my lead from is set in the Barikady factory around the 23rd October. It tells me the length of barrel, but not the Ausf, which is frustrating! I have being try to work it out be production dates of various Ausf, but it sounds like that book may be a goldmine of info!

There are several photos of the division's tanks, but short of comparing them to my various books on the Pz III and IV I cannot say what Ausf. they are off the top of my head.

The author of Death of the Leaping Horseman also published a picture book called Angriff. His best work though is Island of Fire. It's from the offensive starting around the beginning of November with the engineer battalions brought in for the assault and goes to the surrender.

I don't think 12 of the sig33s made it to Stalingrad. They are talked about in Island of Fire. I want to say they got 6 but even not all of them got into action due to mechanical issues.

The photos of IIIs from 24th panzer look like all Js. There is a thread here with a lot of photos of them:
link

There are both short and long Stug IIIs. F/8s for the long barrels I *think*.

IVs are probably all Fs (1s and 2s).

That's what I would (and eventually will) be building for Stalingrad Germans.

And you have the 24th panzer dice already right?
TMP link

The list in the Rapid Fire supplement has a single Sig33b, but admits that only a handful were there. The scenario has taken a week's worth of fighting and reduced it to one day, so there are bound to be a few mistakes and changes. I am just using it as it produces a balanced game.

However, having made a few calculations and realised that it will cost me over £170.00 GBP to get all the individual vehicles together, it's going to take some time!

What was the colour scheme for the SiG 33s at Stalingrad please?

I've seen conflicting information…

What was the colour scheme for the SiG 33s at Stalingrad please?

My understanding is that those with 6th Armee in the city were overall grey, but there's more confusion about the other detachment taking part in the relief attempt.

The one photograph available of the sIG33B's at Stalingrad looks to be a uniform gray color, but it's b&w, so you have to assume. Solid in any case.

"The short barrel 75mm would be the ausf N, though part of me wants to think very few would have made it to Stalingrad, as I think they were mostly sent to North Africa first in 1942."

I would also be amazed to see a Pz IIIN in Stalingrad in October.

Go with:

3 x Pz IIIJ (lang)
2 x Pz IV F1 (kurz)
1 x Pz IV F2/G (lang)

As mentioned above, I would also expect to see some Pz III G/H (or early J) with short 50s, so maybe go with 2 x Pz IIIJ and 1 x Pz IIIG.

I would also be amazed to see a Pz IIIN in Stalingrad in October.

Vol. 2 of Panzer Truppen by Jentz has a table of 'operational panzers' as of 18 November 1942. Against 24th Panzer is the figure 5 for Panzer III 75. So, is this a mistake? Did they arrive after October? In any case, 'Death of the Leaping Horseman' makes no mention of Pz IIIN.

Make of this what you will.

"So, is this a mistake? Did they arrive after October?"

No, I am sure Jentz is correct, he usually is. It was more their relative scarcity compared to other types.

The operational figures Jentz quotes for 24th Panzer are more the ratios I'd expect, in RF terms 1 x Pz II, 2 x Pz IIIG, 3-4 PzIIIJ, 1 x Pz IV F1, 2 x Pz IVF2/G and one lonely Pz IIIN, plus HQ.

Thanks for the input guys, the unit that is mentioned in the Rapid Fire! lists are the 16th Panzer Div. not the 24th, does this change matters?

Well it makes all my posts irrelevant for a start! But what's new?

On the 18th of November 1942 Jentz lists 16 Panzer as having;

21 Pz III lg
1 Pz IV kz
9 Pz IV lg

A lot different to 24 Panzer on the same date.

I've had a look through several of my Concord photo books and have only found two photos depicting 16 Pz. Both show Pz IIILs and one a Pz IVG.

An interesting modelling point is that several photos of Pz IIILs show them without the additional spaced armour over the gun mantlet in the drive on Stalingrad.