"Fix bayonets? When was the last time..." Topic

… You did that in a game. Actually go to "melee" in a modern scenario and I don't mean 40K type sci-if fantasy? Tango's bayonet post got me thinking about that.

My son pulled that on me a couple of months ago in a what-if Force on Force game that pitted US Special Forces and Philippine Regulars against my Chinese Paras who were trying to take the Philippine island of Palawan.

My force was defending the drop zone against a snap allied counterattack. I had a well placed MMG team that shut down his advance, so he left a force to keep it "entertained" while the rest of his force slipped through a wood that concealed his approach. I had a fireteam placed there for just such an emergency and they stopped his force butt cold. Then did something very effective.

He laid some suppressive fire on my team with the bulk of his force then rushed the position with the the remainder… bayonets fixed! A brutal hand-to-hand struggle broke out that lasted for several rounds as neither side gave ground. Alas, the dice failed me and he wiped out my tean and took several prisoners. Hot on its heels a Filipino grenadier dropped a perfect M203 shot on my MG team, an action that opened a gap in my defenses and allowed his forward observer team to move into LOS of my drop zone to call in artillery strikes on my assembling troops. That was the main victory condition for his Filo-American force and it was gained by the bayonet!

So how about you? When was a time that the bayonet or melee combat won or lost a modern game for you?

I know it has happened in the fairly recent past. In the I Drang Valley (We were Soldiers….), and in Iraq. So it is not outrageous to think or allow it to happen in a modern game.

seems to happen at least every other game or so for me any way, mostly in side buildings.

Certainly there have been isolated incidents, but for the most part, it's a thing of the past. When I was in the Army (the 80s), bayonets weren't even issued.

5 games or so of Chain of Command, not a single melee.

Routed the Argentinians at the Falklands

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2004 Basra.

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I did it a few weeks ago in a DropZone Commander game. My PHR Immortals went into a building with a heavily reduced garrison of Scourge troops in there.

It still wasn't pretty.

However I wanted to do it because, despite playing at least 20 games of DZC over the last two years, I have never seen close combat before.

I also saw close combat done in a game of Infinity about 3 months ago. I tried it there too. It didn't go so well.

I probably won't do it again in either game unless I really, really need to.

And that is one thing I really like about both of those games.

The Grenadiers fixed bayonets last night in the inaugural game of Flames of Liberty and charged the Minutemen.
It did not help. Bad die rolling canceled the bayonet advantage.

Something I think only the British Army still is keen on – it is very good at intimidating a non bayonet using enemy – as seen in the Falklands and Iraq

Also by the French in Bosnia.

It's very rare for me. In fact in this game I had to stop for a minute to refresh my memory on HOW Force on Force did melee! Luckily it isn't that different from normal fire combat, just more deadly because it doesn't end until one side or the other breaks or dies.

It's brutal for both sides but very decisive IF you can pull it off. That suppression he put on my unit really helped, as it should have, because I could have gunned his men down as they rushed me. But being suppressed down to a d6 troop quality really cramped my style and his snake eaters kept a d10 quality die… I'm lucky I held on for as long as I did!

I just finished reading this '3 Commando Brigade' in Afganistan by Ewen Southby-Tailyour (highly recommended) He mentions fixed bayonets for house/compound clearing on a fairly regular basis,

My brother put his bayonet (on the end of an SLR) through his own armpit when he was a squaddie in the eighties. Who said the drill square can't be a dangerous place?

I play a fair amount of Two Hour Wargames' Vietnam rules, FNG. At home, I do not think I have only had one player want to charge to melee.

On the other hand, when I run those games at HMGS conventions in the east, I would say in about half the games a charge to hand to hand combat takes place.

Tom

If 'melee' includes close combat, then yes, all the time – it is the only way to actually clear enemy positions.

Post WW2 the most recent example would be house clearing in Helmand to cover the ATO defusing a huge IED. The British Army clears houses with bayonets fixed, there were even some Taliban in some of the houses.

Most recent WW2 game was the swirling battle around Mokre in August 1944, a Soviet rifle regiment did a very neat job of rolling up a dug in panzer grenadier battalion by suppressing then assaulting successive positions, shot in by supporting mortar, MG and tank fire. They were Russians, they always have fixed bayonets.

My 2-inch mortar teams seem to have a remarkable ability to beat off close assaults. I swear it's because they fitted a bayonet to the mortar… ;)

Yes, at least to me, melee=close combat. In gaming terms it's moving into base to base, or whatever the game allows for this, and having a quick, decisive, combat.

I find them to be very rare in my games because fire combat generally, usually, works. But every now and then the enemy seems to take root to the ground and needs some serious persuasion to make them move.

That's when you, like Thomas Jackson said, "Give them the bayonet!"

Does board games count? In last nights game of Advanced Squad Leader, we had a berserk American squad charge, the German MG jammed so they made into close combat, which dragged on to become a melee.

In mini's combat, a few months ago and it was honestly because we both felt it was the thing that character would do (being a "gun totin' bravado" kind of guy)

Ironic, I get Force on Force but ASL leaves me cross eyed. But yeah, that counts.

We're playing through the Starter Kit battles with some of the full rules folded in and having a great time but I totally get why a lot of people tune it out. It's dense and unapologetically 80's.

Original SL is such a great game (hence the name) though I've never played Advanced.
I didn't know American squads could berserk; just Russians, ss and ghurkas (and goums maybe?) in the original,great stuff.

Russians are more likely to go berserk than Americans but my buddy Dave always has crazy freak dice :)

Gone into hand-to-hand a couple times playing Ambush Alley.

While I haven't played Flames of War in a while, I regularly went into assault then. Mortars or arty to pin the unit sitting on the objective, my troops then go in with grenades and bayonet to remove the objective-sitters.

Only went into close combat once when playing Infinity, but the new edition has made CC a viable choice instead of the stupidest thing you could do. So I'm looking forward to playing N3 and actually getting into CC.

If my troops don't manage to get into close combat at least once in a game then I've failed them ;)

Incidentally, I have a stack of write-ups I'm working on; you'll soon see plenty of 10mm Germans and Poles (actually Soviets I'm using as proxies) going at it with bayonet, grenade, pistol, and e-tool.

Granted, I am of the opinion firepower is to fix the enemy, thus allowing you to destroy them via close combat (as opposed to letting them escape). As mentioned above, many rules assign too much capability to firepower, thus making close assault unnecessary.

In my opinion it's not only an issue of having firepower not be too lethal: firepower has to have the possible affect of pinning someone in place, or even forcing them back, and the unit under fire has to have the ability to recover in a timely manner. Then you have to work in a command and control/activation mechanism that throws a bit of uncertainty into the mix. To me, all that is necessary to make sure close combat doesn't become too formulaic (i.e., a simple fire, pin, close assault, rinse and repeat; you need to have a chance for things to go awry).

So, I've been doing pretty well in that regard ;)

V/R,
Jack

Yes! Glad to see that the charge of the Argylls and friends in Basra got a notice, above (link). The bayonet still plays its humble but important part in infantry combat.

I always outfitted my sci-fi RPG characters with a bayonet on my "laser rifle" (or whatever), if only to annoy the GM, and any chance I got to use it, I did so.

Count me among the grognards who still believe in the value of instilling an aggressive, can-do attitude in soldiers, and nothing does this like bayonets and esprit de corps.

like I have been told for 51 years "Better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it" Bayonets fall dead center of that statement. :)

Many years ago, in a National Guard infantry unit as a new know-it-all 2d Lieutenant, I was opining how the bayonet was outdated and obsolete in modern warfare. The platoon sergeant pulled back his sleeve and showed me the nasty, foot-long scar he had gotten from a Vietcong bayonet.

My only other relevant experience in a short and undistinguished military career, was that every time we were ordered to fix bayonets for a ceremony or parade, inevitably someone would accidently gash themselves and get blood all over their uniform. Or wave the end of their rifle near my eyes. Nasty weapon, that.

From what I read, the US Army launched only one bayonet charge in WWII. Even though it was successful, the Division Commander was relieved for ordering it.

PHGamer what unit?

Has anyone ever used an M16 with a bayonet? Or tried to club someone with an M16? Somehow I don't see it being very effective. An M14 with a bayonet – that's impessive and good for using as a club. What weapon did the British use with their bayonet?

We used the SA80 with the bayonet.
When I was in the British Army in the '90's the bayonet was important in that it produced a Psychological effect on the user.
The philosophy of the British was "Close with" and kill them enemy. Lots of bayonet drill and aggression stuff.
The order "Fix Bayonets" didn't mean you were going to charge but to make the mental change so as to get stuck in.

Also part of the trench clearing drill was after you'd posted your grenade into the position and then emptied a magazine into said position, you had to jump into the 'ole and stick your bayonet into everyone you found. Just to make sure.
Scottish efficiency.

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I am sorry Lordghee. I know read it in "There's a War to be Won" by Geoffrey Perret, which I heartily recommend. And it was in the Pacific theater. I skimmed the chapters and can't come up with the exact reference.

We had the good old L1A1 SLR was the length of a spear…

In, twist, "Bang" twist, out!

Yours went bang?! Mine rarely did. I gave my spare mags to other people.

Years ago in an ACW game. Down to my last unit,outnumbered,so I had them fix bayonets and charge. Results;OPFOR routed,battle won,good feeling inside.