MadMax17 | 26 Dec 2014 10:28 a.m. PST |
Just had a question concerning the M60A3 vs M60A3(TTS) deployment. Were the A3s deployed to Europe then upgraded to TTS? Or how did this work? Basically I'm trying to find out which units had TTS in late 1983. Thanks, Max |
Cold Steel | 26 Dec 2014 12:34 p.m. PST |
There were very few M60A3s built without the TTS. IIRC, it was the initial low-rate production run of less than 300 from 78-80. All of them were upgraded to the TTS by 82. So the answer to your specific question is by 1983, all M60A3s had TTS. |
MadMax17 | 26 Dec 2014 2:57 p.m. PST |
Ok great thank you! While we're on the topic, do you know if this M1 fielding plan is correct? -3ID: the first three battalions receive M1s in March 1982, and all the others have there's by the end of 1983? -11ACR: A troop gets theirs in Aug 1983. Is the rest of the regiment complete by the end of 1983? -2ACR: 1984 -2AD(FWD): 1984 -3AD: 1985 -8ID and 1AD go straight to M1A1 in the late 80s |
Mako11 | 26 Dec 2014 3:07 p.m. PST |
What is TTS? Some sort of gun stabilization system? |
Cold Steel | 26 Dec 2014 3:16 p.m. PST |
Thermal sights. All I know about the about the fielding schedule was the 8th ID had several battalions of M1s for REFORGER 82. I was in 1ID in the early 80s. We were so far down the priority list, the M60A1 RISE was an upgrade. Even National Guard brigades were getting M1s before us. |
Saber6 | 26 Dec 2014 3:18 p.m. PST |
We got them in '80 (3/8 CAV,8th ID) just as I was to PCS. At Ft Benning they still had A1s |
Mako11 | 26 Dec 2014 3:32 p.m. PST |
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Also, good info on the rollout plans/replacements, since we wargamers get to use some "obsolete" kit for quite a while, as new stuff gets provided to various units. Definitely a headache to keep track of who got what, when, though. |
Cold Steel | 26 Dec 2014 3:43 p.m. PST |
Gamers like to focus on the Latest and Greatest. In 83-84, the M1 and T-72 were the talk of the town, while the most common tanks in both sides' inventories were the M60A1 and T-55, followed by the M48A5 and the T-62. |
Lion in the Stars | 26 Dec 2014 5:34 p.m. PST |
Supposedly, the M60A3's Tank Thermal Sight was better than the one fitted to the Abrams. I have no clue WHY, but I read somewhere that the tankers that transitioned from M60A3 to Abrams were not happy about it. |
MadMax17 | 26 Dec 2014 6:01 p.m. PST |
Cold Steel, I believe it was 3rd ID that had them for Reforger 82, link; usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm. From everything I've found 8th ID went directly from M60A3 to M1A1 in 1988ish. Ah yeah I remember hearing about the "legacy brigades" of 1st ID, one of my instructors was telling me about it when I asked about going to Riley. We got fielded M1A1SAs and M3A2ODS when I got there in 2009. They now have M1A2SEP and M3A3 like the rest of the army, so the big red one has finally lived down the legacy status! Saber6, you guys got the M60A3 TTS in 1980? |
Buck215 | 26 Dec 2014 6:04 p.m. PST |
I was with 2/68 AR of the 8th ID (Mechanized) from 1986-88 in Baumholder, West Germany and we had M60A3's with the TTS. I must say the TTS was much better than trying to shoot through the 105D (Daylight Sight)… |
Cold Steel | 26 Dec 2014 6:20 p.m. PST |
Madmax, you may be right about the 3ID instead of the 8th. I'm going from memory and that was a little while ago. |
Murphy | 26 Dec 2014 8:36 p.m. PST |
What is TTS? TTS stands for Tank Thermal Sights… A thermal sighting system used in the M60A3 to replace the useless IR (Rise Passive) sighting system. It has a gunners sight and a TC's sight. Made a distinct clacka-claka-claka noise as it ran. (Basically put a large plastic bead into a metal can and shake it back and forth to get the sound). The Gunner had the option of Wide Field of View, or Narrow Field or View, and could go "white hot", or "black hot". The system took approximately 15 minutes for the liquid nitrogen to be ready within the system for it to be used, so the moment you cranked the track, you turned the TTTS on to have it ready. Both the TC and the gunner could use it to fire the main gun, coax, and track the M85 .50 cal from. It was an amazing piece of technology for its time. You could magnify on it, and watch a man at 1000 meters get off his track..walk across a field to a tree, take a leak…you could see the heat difference between the man, the ground and where his urine was soaking and changing the temp. We used it on Gunnery more than the M35 primary site, OR the 105 Delta. You could tell an M60A3 that had a TTS because if you looked at the outside gunners periscope, the IR/RISE periscope housing was square and angular whereas the TTS housing was rounded in the back. When the new M1's came online, with what they called (at the time) the TIS (Tank Imaging System), it still didn't have the bugs worked out, and in the first few years, M60A3's with TTS gun out-shoot M1's with TIS just about every time. The initial TIS systems didn't image targets with as much thermal accuracy. It took a few years to improve but they got it right. Perhaps the biggest problem with the TTS, (other than the noise), was the fact that the seals around it could leak during a hard rain and the gunner would have water dripping down onto him from bad rubber seals. Fun fun fun….NOT…. Sincerely; Murphy |
Mako11 | 26 Dec 2014 9:31 p.m. PST |
Great info. Thanks for sharing. How far at night can you detect another vehicle with the old white-light searchlights, and/or infra-red searchlights? I'm talking with the really old S/Ls, like on the M-48 and M-60A1 models, so late 1950s – late 1970s era. I ran across a few anecdotes that seem to indicate about 800 – 1000m, to 1,500m for the little Jagdpanzer Kanones' S/Ls, and am not sure which you can see further with. Their S/Ls appear to be a bit smaller than the really massive ones on the American tanks, so perhaps those can see further at night, e.g. 2,000m+, or so, assuming clear atmospheric conditions. Any info on how far you can see with the S/Ls from an early Leopard (Leopard 1), and/or T-55s and T-62s would be helpful too, in both W/L, and I/R modes. |
Cold Steel | 27 Dec 2014 5:27 a.m. PST |
The friendly spotting range of the searchlight in white light or IR was around 1,500 meters officially. Different models would vary some. In reality, it was 800-1000 meters if you wanted to accurately identify the target and not waste shots on a big rock (there is a story behind that). The bad guy range of a searchlight was basically line of sight. As soon as you turned one on, the whole world knew exactly where you were. |
marcus arilius | 27 Dec 2014 10:22 a.m. PST |
only FT.Knox's 1st training Brigade had non TTS M60A3's . we only had 1 tank equipped with TTS.in 1981. yes the Cav in Germany still had M60a1's . |
marcus arilius | 27 Dec 2014 10:26 a.m. PST |
the West Germans used a night vision camera which was better then our passive site but nothing like the TTS. they where always amazed at how well we could see at night. this was in the early 80's. |
MadMax17 | 27 Dec 2014 11:42 a.m. PST |
Marcus, Were you in the training brigade at Knox? And you're saying the Cav units in Germany would still have A1s in 1983? Thanks |
Murphy | 27 Dec 2014 12:43 p.m. PST |
MadMax and Marcus… Not sure about 1st Training BDE at Knox having non TTS A3's… My OSUT was A-3-1 and we had TTS A3's… First unit I went to was right up the hill, 19th AR. BDE ("The Dollar Ninety Four, The Slave Brigade, The Old Ball and Chain", etc..), and when I got to 4/37 they still had A1's….we traded out 1 1/2 monts later for A3's with TTS. I did the last active duty Army gunnery qualification on the M48A5. It was perhaps the most brutal and awful experience in my four years in Armor, and 9 years in MI. From tracks physically breaking during road marches and almost causing accidents to 105 rounds going off inside a turret, to a medevac crash on the range…. It was a month and a half of "Training" that I would never want to wish on any trooper. The issue with the Xenons is that you had to rev the engine to a high rpm to get the power to light it up…and you could only keep them on for a minute or so at the most, and then turn them off the cool down. Plus, they always let the other guys know where you were….I hated them. Glad when we got the A3 TTS…. The Laser rangefinder and M21 ballistics computer also beat the snot out of the Crazy L's and the manual operated ballistic system…. |
Mako11 | 27 Dec 2014 4:14 p.m. PST |
Thanks for the info on the white-light searchlights. Yes, I suspect turning one on at night is not really a good idea, when you have a well-armed enemy nearby Do the I/R lights have the same range capabilities, or a better, or worse range? Using those would seem to be a bit better, though if the enemy has I/R detectors, once again, you'd be screwed, and lit up like a Christmas tree. |
MadMax17 | 27 Dec 2014 5:17 p.m. PST |
Murphy, Good Lord what unit and when was that?? Sounds awful!! |
Murphy | 27 Dec 2014 8:24 p.m. PST |
MadNax17 Oct. 1983, I was with 5/73rd AR and 4/54 Inf tagged along, as we went to Ft. Drum to "Train" for our upcoming January NTC rotation. I was with A 5/73rd AR (194th AR. BDE). One day I will get around to scanning and showing the pics of the vehicles. The tanks were old NY Army National Guard POS's, from the 50th NY/NJ Armd. Division and hadn't been used in almost 2 years before we got there. |
MadMax17 | 28 Dec 2014 2:33 p.m. PST |
Wow, that's pretty awful, must have been quite the step down from the a3 with TTS! |
Murphy | 28 Dec 2014 9:05 p.m. PST |
MadMax17 it was brutal… if you have an email, shoot it to me, and I will send you some photos that I took "Way back then" that I've been scanning in. |
Major Mike | 29 Dec 2014 6:52 a.m. PST |
I always liked the 4" or so view screen of the TTS. The ITV and the M-1 required the gunner to have their eye right up on the sight to observe thru their imagining system. In the a3 the gunner and the TC could sit back and watch which greatly reduced eye strain. When I came back from Germany and went thru the advanced course they were teaching us how to work M-1's. Unfortunately a half dozen of us were going to Ft. Riley and their m60a1's. Out on the range with the turret trainers we managed to get an NCO to allow us to work with the old rangefinders to gain back the knowledge we had forgotten. I was lucky at Riley as the tanks were the "newest" on post so we had all passive sights on the tanks. Other battalions still had IR tanks and had to have searchlights. One aspect of searchlights was using it in IR mode. It can cause confusion on the target if they are using passive devices as it will "wash them out". |
MadMax17 | 29 Dec 2014 4:00 p.m. PST |
Murphy, Sure thing! Is there a way to Pm you on here? |
Lion in the Stars | 29 Dec 2014 4:34 p.m. PST |
@MadMax17: You need to be a Supporting Member to get access to the PM function on these forums. Once you are (it may take Bill a couple days or more to process your paperwork), there's a gray box to the right of the member's name with a "P" on it. click on that to open the PM screen. |
MadMax17 | 31 Dec 2014 8:52 a.m. PST |
Ok thanks Lion! Another question, did the M60A1 RISE Passive and the A3 without TTS retain the searchlight over the barrel? |
Cold Steel | 01 Jan 2015 6:02 a.m. PST |
The M60A1 RISE supposedly kept the new Xenon searchlight, but when I received my new RISE in 1981 at Riley, there weren't enough available. I don't know about the original A3s. |
PrivateSnafu | 04 Jan 2015 2:42 p.m. PST |
You guys seem super knowledgeable about the M60A3. I'm thinking about buying a few 6mm versions. Is there anything you can tell me about reactive armor versus not? Not sure what model to pick up if I wanted to do a 1986 Cold War goes hot thing. |
Cold Steel | 05 Jan 2015 4:56 a.m. PST |
Reactive armor was talked about a lot, but the only ones who actually used it were the Marines in GW1. I have no idea how well it worked. Most of us weren't thrilled at the idea of attaching things that go boom to the outside of our armor when we spent most of the time with our heads out of the hatch. |
PrivateSnafu | 05 Jan 2015 11:35 a.m. PST |
Awesome response, thank you. That does sound a bit crazy! Have any idea how and when the Russians used it on their T-72's? |
Lion in the Stars | 05 Jan 2015 12:42 p.m. PST |
At least in WW2, Soviet practice was hatches CLOSED when in combat. I suspect that hasn't changed. (IIRC, NATO practice is hatches open, eyes up when in combat.) |
Cold Steel | 05 Jan 2015 3:00 p.m. PST |
Lion, hatches closed means you are almost blind everywhere except straight ahead. We learned the value of open hatches when not under artillery fire from the Israelis. We also expected the same horrific casualties among TCs they had, which is why we didn't like reactive armor and the M1 has a hatch that can be opened straight up, giving the TC overhead cover. |
MadMax17 | 10 Jan 2015 9:20 p.m. PST |
Thanks for all of your responses guys, I appreciate it! Incidentally, I found this: 2. The first versions of the M60A3 were not equipped with the Tank Thermal Sight (TTS), but retained the Passive night sights and the tank still had a Xenon searchlight mounted like the M60A1. In West Germany M60A3 Passive tank units were two armor battalions in 1st Brigade, 3rd AD; 11th ACR; and the 2nd ACR. All of these M60A3's had a retro-fit of the TTS in 1982-83. At: link |
Lion in the Stars | 11 Jan 2015 2:24 p.m. PST |
@Cold Steel: I know that your visibility goes to hell when buttoned up. I also don't expect the Russians to care. "Follow the [expletives deleted] Doctrine or I will save the Amerikanski the trouble and shoot you myself!" |