"1914 OOB & TOE problems" Topic

Hi Folks

I don't know whether it is just me and the sources I've tried to use but I keep finding a lot of conflicting info. on the make up and equipment of German army units particularly.

Almost every source seems to come up with a different number or organisation of the MG element in both infantry and cavalry divisions and lacks details as to what equipment and capabilities the engineers, bridging train and signal elements have.

I thought I'd be able to rely on the lists done by George Nafziger, having found his WW2 and other lists of inestimable value in the past, but there seem to be some errors and strange bits that I can't fathom (e.g. 4 gun field batteries, MG battalions and a few others) also I can't find any low level details of the supporting arms such as signals, engineers etc.

Ospreys are worse still, contradicting themselves on more than one occasion and still lacking details as above.

I came across a book by Crom (Hermann ?) that looks very good and some samples pages are online – just not the bits I need. Nafziger doesn't seem to use his data, though gives
him as a source so I wonder if he is thought unreliable ? Anyone got his book to be able to comment ?

I've pretty well figures out the MG issue but does anyone know of a good source for details on the supporting arms (Engineers, Signals & Bridging) – particularly TOE and capabilities of the units at different levels (i.e. Division, Corps & Army).

Finally – does anyone know any sources on the Belgian army in 1914 other than the listing of its theoretical composition.

Thanks

Tony of TTT

Not sure if they'll simply add to the confusion but have you tried the micromark ww1 lists over at wargame vault for to&e details

Tonic – do you know what level of detail they go down to ? I have tried a few MM lists in the past and not been particularly impressed with them. These may be different but I'd like some idea of how good they are from someone who has seen them.

Thanks for the idea though, I'd not considered them.

Cant speak for the accuracy as WW1 isnt a period I'm particularly au fait with but, for example, the German 1914 corps list goes down to squad/HMG team level

E.g. 1914 German Jager Company: CHQ = 1 15 man squad, 3 Platoons ea. 3 x Rifle squad

Hope that helps

p.s. for less than a quid apiece it might be worth picking up a .pdf of a list youre familiar with to see how it stacks up against your own research?

Thanks Tonic. I hadn't actually realised how cheap these things are as PDF so I bought a few samples. Not bad but still not quite the details I've been looking for. At least they do agree with previous research on MG numbers and artillery.

According to my limited sources (Purnell WWI series and Schlieffen: the Plan that Broke the World) German 1914 regiments had a company of 6 machine guns. While they could be parceled out 2 per battalion like the Allies they also could be massed.

And from a board game company link

From what I have read it was fairly rare for the MG Coy to be split up early in the campaign.

There is more evidence emerging about how frequently the Germans split up the MG company. This was quite common when attacking during the earliest battles in August and September 1914. Jack Sheldon and Terence Zuber's books all have multiple references to this tactic.

Robert

Robert, are you serious? Man, there goes another wargames myth: I loved the tactical headache a combined MG company gave to German regimental commanders. Place it right and it is devastating, place it wrong and it is useless.

Sigh.

Will look into some of the books you identify.

Thanks for this, even if you have ruined my day!

As above, I think the 1914 MG company is pretty standard at 6 guns (which also often operated in sections of two). It is the later war MG companies which are all over the place!

Information on support arms does indeed seem quite sparse, although in Ellis's WW1 Databook it lists the two divisional engineer field companies as having 267 men (incl officers), 20 horses and seven vehicles, and the bridging train as having 61 men, 98 horses, 21 vehicles and 6 x 4.5m pontoons.

Nothing on signals.

At the level I normally play at, that is a couple of stands….

Martin :

I had the numbers of men in units but not their equipment, didn't even know for certain the number of pontoons either – though I had an idea it was 3 sections each of 2 wagons from another source. At least I now know they were the large pontoons – is it possible they were in two halves ? I have seen pics of what looks like half a pontoon on a wagon.

My engineers will probably be in teams (probably about platoon equivalent) even though other forces are company bases. Idea is that they will be 'task' units as the whole company would be overkill for most jobs. My main need is info on what they could do with the tools they had with them – and knowing the tools would help me work that out.

As for the MG, my initial confusion was between those sources that said they were 2 guns per Bn and those with the correct 6 per regiment. In saying they were not split up I mean that there is little evidence (at least that I have found) of them being distributed to the Bn. Tactically the company did divide to support more than one attack but remained under a single command most of the time. I too must get a copy of Zuber, I think a mate has got one I can peruse.

Thanks for the help folks – keep it and we might get what I need by New Year !!!!

GildasFacit

I picked up 'Handbook of the German Army 1918' from Naval And Military Press. It has most of what you are looking for.
It has chapters on Machine Guns, Engineers, Bridging Train & Signal service.

N&M also has a 1914 version:
link

And a Belgian version:
link

When machine gun companies were split up, they were allocated on an as required basis. Typically this would mean they were assigned to a battalion. The section leader would report to the battalion infantry commander in order to understand the tactical problem and execute against the plan. Machine gun sections were not coordinated from the machine gun company in the way that machine gun units were later in the war.

Here is Cron's information about pontoon trains:

"At the beginning of the war every Army Corps and every infantry, Reserve, and Landwehr Division was equipped with a pontoon train. Thus, the pontoon trains of 26 corps, 51 divisions, 26 Reserve divisions and 2 Landwehr divisions took to the field with their units. In addition every active cavalry regiment had 2 pontoon wagons. On the left wing of the Army of the West was the heavy Rhine pontoon train as a special formation. The establishments were as follows:

Corps pontoon train – Train: 6 officers, 136 NCOs and other ranks, 235 horses, 26 pontoon wagons, 2 trestle wagons; Pioneer escort: 2 officers, 64 NCOs and ORs, 2 horses.

Divisional pontoon train – 2 officers, 59 NCOs and other ranks, 98 horses, 15 pontoon wagons and 6 other wagons. The (or a) divisional pioneer company served for bridge building purposes.

Heavy Rhine pontoon train – Train: 10 officers, 305 NCOs and other ranks, 542 horses, 118 pontoon wagons and other wagons; Pioneer escort: 5 officers, 259 NCOs and ORs, 12 horses, 3 wagons."

There is a photograph of an early war pontoon boat here:

link

Robert

On Signal Troops:

"Initially in the Field Army there were the following signals formations:

- in the Great Headquarters the Chief of Field Telegraphy as director of the whole signals service in the field, a motorised wireless station and a telephone section.

- with every Army Command a Staff Officer of Telegraph Troops as adviser and technical director in the Army area, an Army Telegraph Section, a Wireless Command and 2 heavy wireless stations.

- with every [Corps] General Command a Corps Telephone Section.

- with every cavalry division a Signals Section with 1 heavy and 2 light wireless stations.

- with the units of all service arms telephone and flag signalling equipment.

Worthy of emphasis from the establishments of the individual formations are the telephone section (divided into 5 detachments) with 2 station wagons and 20 construction wagons, the Corps Telephone Section with 4 station wagons and 12 telegraph material wagons. The Army Telegraph Section was divided into a telegraph company, train column, and motorised telephone detachment, with 1 station wagon, 4 motorised telephone wagons and 14 material wagons. The Heavy Wireless Station had 1 station wagon, 1 wireless mast wagon, and 1 pioneer store wagon. The Light Wireless Station had 1 station wagon and 1 store wagon."

Note that Heinz Guderian started the war as a light wireless station operator in the German cavalry. This experience played an important part in his understanding of what was needed to support the Blitzkrieg concept in WW2.

Robert

Iangobard, no need to panic ;-) You can still go with the full MG company if you wish… And not just because of Christmas.

The translation of Die Schlacht bei Mons will be available shortly. Holger and I translated the German official account of the Mons battle, which includes references to MG companies and their use. It also describes how engineers were allocated at battalion level during this battle as well. I am awaiting the first draft print version. Once this is proof read and any corrections made then it will go for final printing – hard copy, paperback and electronic. Dr Jack Sheldon kindly wrote the Foreword.

Robert

Sorry for delay in thanks for contributions, been very busy.

Great Robert, certainly confirms bits I have found in some cases but more pontoons than I'd expected if each wagon has 1 each.

Any idea as to the reliability and range of the German light wireless sets ? Would they be similar to the British ? Did they distain their use as much as the Brits ?

Look forward to the book – who will the publishers be ?

I will be publishing through Lulu but distributing through the major channels.

I am uncertain about the range of the light wireless sets but they were unreliable. There were several reasons for this. Atmospheric conditions were a problem, with the humidity causing difficulties. Heavy traffic was a major issue, with wireless frequently being used for less than important messages. Finally there was the jamming carried out by the French, using the Eiffel Tower.

Robert