"28mm unit size Cavalry / Imperial Guard 1815" Topic
11 Posts
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wargame insomniac | 21 Dec 2014 6:02 p.m. PST |
Hi What would be the best way of basing 28mm cavalry and Imperial Guard units? FRENCH LINE INFANTRY I am looking at representing full strength theoretical units (i.e. before any campaign losses)at roughly 1/20 ratio. I like the look of infantry at 15mm spacing and cavalry 20mm spacing. Units for 1815 (maybe Peninisular at earliest). Rules intended to be Black Powder (but want to be flexible to be able to use figures for other rulesets without rebasing). For French Line Infantry I'm looking to represent units as Battalions, with 2 (maybe 3) Battalions to a Regiment. I gather theoretical strength of Battalion was 720 men with 6 companies of 120 each. So at 1/20 ratio I am happy with 36 man Battalion with 6 bases of 6 figures each on 45mm wide * 40mm deep base. FRENCH CAVALRY For French Cavalry I gather that theoretical strength of Regiment was between 800 and 1.200 men, with 6-8 adminstrative Companies organised into 3-4 Squadrons on battlefield. At 1/20 ratio that would mean full strength Regiment of between 40-60 figures.
I would like to represent each Squadron, given Napoleon's quote that "squadron will be to the cavalry what the battalion is for infantry." But that mean 4 units of 10-12 figures for each cavalry Regiment. That seem overpowering for game. What about two units of 12 cavalry to represent each Regiment as a compromise? If I base 3 cavalry to each base, that will be 4 bases *2 units , which would equate to 8 Squadrons of Regiment. Thus for Hussars/Dragoons 1 base of 3 figures for Elite Company. FRENCH GUARD INFANTRY For Guard Grenadiers/Chasseurs I gather that theoretically each Guard Battalion was approx. 800-men strong. And that in 1815 decree each Guard regiment "will consist of 2 battalions, each of 4 companies." At 1/20 ratio that would mean full strength Battalion of 40 figures.
If I stuck to one base per Company, that would mean 4 bases of 10 men based 75mm wide * 40mm deep. Initially I was concerned how this would look in column of attack formation. Then I saw:
So how does that sound for full strength Battalions? -36 man Line Infantry Battalion (6 bases *6) -12 man cavalry demi-Regiment (4 bases *3) -40 man Guard Infantry Battalion (4 bases *10)
Cheers James |
Gunny87 | 21 Dec 2014 8:51 p.m. PST |
French cavalry companies in 1815 had an established strength of 2 officers & 78 other ranks but only 63 horses. Two companies per squadron, 4 squadrons per regiment. At your 1/20 ratio then each squadron wold be 6 figures or half of what was originally proposed. |
xxxxxxx | 21 Dec 2014 11:32 p.m. PST |
I understand that you want full "theorectical" strengths. However, even before entering into the campaign (before any losses) the French guard infantry was nowhere near their theorectical strengths. It's your army, of course, but maybe the actual starting strengths might be of interest. Strengths below are "all ranks", including officers. 1er bataillon du 1er grenadiers : 640 2e bataillon du 1er grenadiers : 640 1er bataillon du 2e grenadiers : 546 2e bataillon du 2e grenadiers : 545 1er bataillon du 1er chasseurs : 654 2e bataillon du 1er chasseurs : 653 1er bataillon du 2e chasseurs : 584 2e bataillon du 2e chasseurs : 583 1er bataillon du 3e grenadiers : 582 (partly ex- flanqueurs-grenadiers) 2e bataillon du 3e grenadiers : 582 (partly ex- flanqueurs-grenadiers) 1er bataillon du 4e grenadiers : 528 (partly ex- gendarmes à pied who had served with guard in 1814) 2e bataillon du 4e grenadiers : not formed for lack of men 1er bataillon du 3e chasseurs : 531 (partly ex- flanqueurs-chasseurs) 2e bataillon du 3e chasseurs : 531 (partly ex- flanqueurs-chasseurs) 1er bataillon du 4e chasseurs : 536 (possibly only 436, partly ex- gendarmes à pied who had served with guard in 1814) 2e bataillon du 4e chasseurs : 535 (posssibly only 435, likley ex- 1er bataillon du 1er voltiguers) 1er bataillon du 1er tirailleurs : 560 2e bataillon du 1er tirailleurs : 549 1er bataillon du 1er voltiguers : 612 (ex- chasseurs corses de l'île de Elbe) 2e bataillon du 1er voltiguers : 607 1er bataillon du 3e tirailleurs : 500 2e bataillon du 3e tirailleurs : 488 1er bataillon du 3e voltiguers : 480 2e bataillon du 3e voltiguers : 487 Similarly understrength, army battalions started the campaign with all ranks strengths in the 450-600 range. - Sasha |
wargame insomniac | 22 Dec 2014 7:17 a.m. PST |
Thanks guys for giving me some detailed stats that either had nt asked for or already knew. Back to the original question. |
Art | 22 Dec 2014 8:58 a.m. PST |
G'Day James If I could make one correction, the administrative formation for the Guard Grenadiers and Chasseurs was four compagnies. But when formed tactically they were formed in eight sub-tactical factions. Which means the battalions should have five figures per stand, with a total of eight stands. When formed en colonne par divisions or colonne d'attaque each division would be ten figures. Hope this helps Best Regards Art |
wargame insomniac | 22 Dec 2014 10:07 a.m. PST |
Thanks Art – so 8 bases then. Cool. What about size. Do you think Guard Infantry Battalions being slightly bigger than 36 figure Line Infantry Battalion would look right on tabletop? |
Murvihill | 22 Dec 2014 10:39 a.m. PST |
French unit sizes are hard to pin down. For example, in August 1813 many infantry units were up to full strength at 840-ish men. Many were less too, and straggling started happening immediately. 1812 was the same way, high initial strength with immediate straggling. The unit strengths were lower at the start of 1809 but units were close to full. IIRC units were much weaker at the start of the 1807, spring 1813 and Waterloo campaigns. Units were consistently understrength in Spain. Not sure about 1805 and 1806. Cavalry often had squadrons of full or nearly full strength but regiments were missing squadrons so the regimental srength would be less than normal (IIRC the 1st 4 lancer regiments in 1812 were only one squadron). So it depends if you want generic, campaign-specific or battle-specific strengths. I base my 1:20 figures generically with French line at 24 or 36 figures, cavalry squadrons at 8 or 10 figures. Guard I base at 32 figures, but if I ever get to Young Guard it might be 24 figures. |
wargame insomniac | 22 Dec 2014 1:17 p.m. PST |
Hi Murvihill I wanted to do theoretical unit strengths so generic. Two reasons for this. Firstly that in my opinion, 36 man French infantry units with 15mm frontage look amazing, so much better than 24 man units with 20mm frontage, yet unit frontage fairly close. 36 man units would be too much for MOST actual strength. (If people want to model individual infantry units with varying model count then go for it. No desire to do that with my figures). Secondly I want to model 100 Days whilst other club members want to get their Sharpe fix by playing Peninsula Campaign. So have to keep unit strengths more generic. Playing Black Powder. Local consensus is that 12 man cavalry units look right. So for me the question is twofold. Firstly will this 12 man unit represent a Regiment, a Squadron or a Company, or some compromise? Secondly should I base 4 bases of 3 figures each or 6 bases of 2 figures? I will be using them for Black Powder. But what if I want to use them for another rulesset in the future that I haven't yet bought or played. Which of those basing would work for alternative rulesets like IGTM, GdB or Lasalle? And how should I model Elite Companies for Dragoons or Hussars? That is why working out what 12 man cavalry unit represents is important. I am a slow painter and have not done much basing before. So I need to work out how to structure my army beforehand. Thanks James |
Murvihill | 23 Dec 2014 10:19 a.m. PST |
Not sure if you're from the UK but the 12-figure thing seems to be common with UK rules. They are mostly written for the Peninsula and keeping cavalry units up to strength was even harder than infantry in that campaign. French cavalry squadrons on the continent should be 8-10 figures, you can cut them down to 6 for the peninsula, just recognize that if you want a full-strength regiment you'll run out of troopers. With a 12 man unit I'd make it two squadrons of 6 figures. If you want the elites make it the 1st and 2nd squadrons and half the first squadron would be the elite company. If you don't want the elites make it the 3rd and 4th squadrons. If you have two units of 12 figures that would be an entire regiment. |
wargame insomniac | 23 Dec 2014 11:29 a.m. PST |
Yes Murvhill- thats what I was leaning to. 2 units of 12 to make up a regiment- will paint 1 unit initially and then go back later for 2nd. I'll go with 4 bases of 3 figures per unit- each base being a company. That just leaves Imperial Guard Infantry to sort out for unit size. Unit size of 32 or 40?? |
Murvihill | 24 Dec 2014 8:33 a.m. PST |
32. I think they hit 40 once or twice but they were closer to 32 for most of their career. That's only the Old Guard and possibly middle guard. Young Guard could be 24 or 32, though I've read that they went to a 6-company organization in 1813 which would be 36, IIRC their mid-August unit strengths reflected that. Of course if your basing your figures exclusively for Waterloo I'd go with the numbers listed above. |
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