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"French Navy Battalions in Marmonts' VI Corps 1813 Questions?" Topic


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Comments or corrections?

I see lead people20 Dec 2014 9:04 p.m. PST

Is anyone able to provide some information on the appearance of the men in the 17 battalions fielded?
Any info gratefully received.

Camcleod20 Dec 2014 9:42 p.m. PST

The two Hourtoulle plates on the following site show their uniforms:

link

I see lead people20 Dec 2014 9:59 p.m. PST

Thanks @Camcleod. I'm not overly sure that this is their uniform? The details specify marine artillery for the 1st image & marines for the 2nd.

That said, I'm not sure of the make up of the navy battalions? It would seem unusual that the French navy could field 17 battalion's of marines?

Still, I like the grenadier style of the uniform, but just not convinced it is correct..

Not being ungrateful, just would like further reference's.
Thanks

Personal logo Mserafin Supporting Member of TMP20 Dec 2014 10:04 p.m. PST

They're not marines, they're just coastal artillerists. "Artillerie de la Marine" means Naval Artillery. They don't wear grenadier uniforms, they wore artillery uniforms, which look a lot like grenadiers (lots of red).

They were drilled as infantry (see Marmot's quote about them being able to maneuver in line), because they didn't have much to do on a day-to-day basis, so they had time to drill.

von Winterfeldt21 Dec 2014 12:29 a.m. PST

AS Mserafin say, they were coastal artillerist and did wear an artillery uniform, a battalion should have in peacetime 6 comapnies – each of 150 men – in war time 200, the structure

1 Capitaine-commandant
1 Capitaine en second
1 Lieutenant en premier
1 Lieutenant en second
1 Sergent-major
5 Sergents
1 Caporal-Fourrier
10 Caporaux
25 Canonniers de 1re classe
5 Canonniers de 2e classe
81 Canonniers-aspirants
2 Tambours

In October 1813 they were much weaker

the strength of the regiments of the artillerie de la Marine in Marmont`s VI. Corps am beginning of October 1813

1er Rgt d'Artillerie de Marine
Etat-major: 8 Off, 14 Troupe
1er bataillon: 16 Off, 333 Troupe
2e bataillon: 16 Off, 335 Troupe
3e bataillon: 14 Off, 358 Troupe
4e bataillon: 16 Off, 344 Troupe
5e bataillon: 15 Off, 364 Troupe

2e Rgt d'Artillerie de Marine
Etat-major: 21 Off, 34 Troupe
1er bataillon: 18 Off, 436 Troupe
2e bataillon: 10 Off, 426 Troupe
3e bataillon: 14 Off, 397 Troupe
4e bataillon: 17 Off, 446 Troupe
5e bataillon: 14 Off, 404 Troupe
6e bataillon: 18 Off, 453 Troupe

3e Rgt d'Artillerie de Marine
Etat-major: 8 Off, 14 Troupe
1er bataillon: 11 Off, 487 Troupe
2e bataillon: 1 Off, 186 Troupe
3e bataillon: 13 Off, 447 Troupe

4e Rgt d'Artillerie de Marine
Etat-major: 11 Off, 27 Troupe
1er bataillon: 15 Off, 414 Troupe
2e bataillon: 12 Off, 456 Troupe
3e bataillon: 17 Off, 431 Troupe

(Tradition Magazine, Hors Série N°15, p.61)

There are quite a few grey zones about the uniform, leather work black or white, headress a mix of shako and hats, there is also a good memoire by Rieu – who brings a lot of interesting details, unit formed in two ranks, etc.

They carried eagles – 1 per regiment – modell 1812 – one was captured at Möckern, the Prussians mistook them as Guards, due to their dark blue great coats.

Jemima Fawr21 Dec 2014 4:24 a.m. PST

I imagine that their 1804 Pattern flags were inscribed with the motto of the French Navy:

"To the water, it is the time!"

"A l'eau, c'est l'heure!"

Prince of Essling21 Dec 2014 5:06 a.m. PST

(from: link which was based on:
John R Elting "Swords Around a Throne";
Rene Chartrand & Francis Back "Napoleon's Sea Soldiers"; Delauney & Guittard "Historique de l'Artillerie de la Marine";
Otto von Pivka "Navies of the Napoleonic Era";
Paul Lecene "Les Marins de la Republique et de l'Empire, 1793-1815";
Eugene Pacini "La Marine";
Alain Pigeard "L'Artillerie de Marine sous le Premier Empire" (Tradition magazine);
Vice-Amiral Krantz "Historique artillerie de la marine"; Leon Hennet "Les milices et les troupes provinciales"; J.R.M. Malaize "Essai Historique & Chronologique sur les Troupes de la Marine, Depuis leur origine jusqu'a nos jours..";
Philip J Haythornthwaite "The Napoleonic Source Book"; Correspondance de Napoleon avec le ministre de la marine";
"Correspondance de l'Empereur Napoleon Ier";
Charles Pauly "Etude sur l'inscription maritime"; &
La Garde Chauvin website.


Naval Artillery (Artillerie de la Marine)

The naval artillery was reactivated in 1795, when 7 demi-brigades were formed.

In 1802 separate battalions were formed – on 20 June for Martinique and on 20 July for Guadeloupe. Both battalions were decimated by yellow-fever.

In May 1803 Napoleon converted the demi-brigades into 4 regiments – the 1st and 2nd regiments each had a HQ of 15 personnel; 4 battalions of six companies (each of 204 personnel). The 2nd regiment gained a fifth battalion in June 1805. The 3rd and 4th regiments each had a HQ of 9 personnel and 2 battalions. In addition there were 4 companies of ouvriers (each of 153 personnel) and 4 companies of apprentis-cannoniers (apprentice gunners) each of 141 personnel. Service in the artillerie de la marine was by voluntary enrolment.

On 6 October 1803 three new compagnies d'apprentis-cannoniers were created for the ports of Dunkirk, Lorient and Ostend.

On 9 November 1804 the artillerie de la marine received the title Corps Impérial Artillerie de la Marine.

In 1805 the compagnies d'apprentis-cannoniers were reduced to 6 – 2 at Brest; and 1 each at Toulon; Rochefort; Lorient; & Dunkirk.

On 7 May 1805 a 5th compagnie ouvriers de la marine was created to serve Antwerp (Anvers) & Boulogne. On 11 June 1805 a 6th compagnie ouvriers de la marine was created to serve Genoa. At this time the battalions of the regiments of artillerie de la marine were deployed:

1st regiment: 4 battalions at Brest;
2nd regiment: 1st battalion at Genoa; 2nd & 4th battalions at Brest; 3rd & 5th battalions at Toulon.
3rd regiment: 2 battalions at Rochefort.
4th regiment: 2 battalions at Lorient.

From December 1806 recruitment for the artillerie de la marine was no longer voluntary; it now followed the same system of conscription as for the land army.

From 27 May 1807 until 20 June 1809, one battalion from Brest was detached to Concarneau to guard the ship Veteran commanded by Jerome Bonaparte, which had been blockaded in that port by a British squadron.

From 26 November 1807 until 10 November 1808 a battalion of the artillerie de la marine was with General Junot's Corps that invaded Portugal. They were tasked to arm, refit & provision 9 abandoned Portuguese ships at Lisbon. The battalion returned to France under the terms of the Convention of Cintra.

From 1809 to 1812 the artillerie de la marine was required to provide manpower to the Equipages.

A provisional battalion was deployed at Belle-Isle from 1809 until 1811.

In 1811 Artillery parks were created to serve the ports of Amsterdam & Rotterdam. There were also temporary artillery parks at Calais, Flessingue (Flushing); Hamburg & La Spezia. Also the same year the compagnie ouvriers de artillerie de la marine at Genoa was split into two – one part went to Cherbourg. A detachment from the artillerie de la marine of 3 officers and 120 men were sent to Spain to serve with the land artillery until 1814.

The decree of 29 February 1812 increased the strength of each company of the artillerie de la marine to 250 men. The regiments were stationed as follows:

1st regiment: 4 battalions at Brest;
2nd regiment: 1 battalion at Genoa; 2 battalions at Toulon; 1 battalion at Lorient; & 1 battalion at Rochefort.
3rd regiment: 2 battalions at Cherbourg.
4th regiment: 2 battalions at Anvers (Antwerp).

In 1812 thirteen officers of the artillerie de la marine served with the Grande Armée in Russia.

The decree of 24 January 1813 transferred the 4 Regiments from the Ministry of the Navy to the Ministry of War with effect 1 February. (The Ministry of the Navy retained 500 men from the artillerie de la marine for service with the fleet.) The regiments were formed as follows: 1st at Brest; 2nd at Toulon; 3rd at Cherbourg; & 4th at Antwerp. The Regiments were reorganised into battalions of 6 companies of 140 men each; battalion HQ of 4 personnel; regimental HQ of 4 personnel. The Regiment mobilised battalions as follows: 1st – 8 battalions; 2nd – 10 battalions; 3rd & 4th – each 4 battalions. 6 battalions remained in the ports and 20 (1st Rgt – 6 battalions; 2nd Rgt – 8 battalions; 3rd & 4th – each 3 battalions) joined Napoleon in Germany to serve in an infantry role in Marmont's VI Corps. 6 battalions were left in Mayence (Mainz) to act as cadres for reinforcements for the Regiments, while most of their men were used to reinforce the other field battalions. As a result the Regiments took the field as follows: 1st – 4 battalions; 2nd – 6 battalions; 3rd & 4th – each 2 battalions. They fought at Lutzen and Bautzen.

During the Armistice the ports sent 4 battalions to their parent formations in Saxony – 1 battalion remained at Brest & 1 at Toulon. On recommencement of hostilities on 18 August the Regiments comprised: 1st – 5 battalions; 2nd – 7 battalions; 3rd & 4th – each 3 battalions. They took part in the battles of Dresden, & Leipzig. During the retreat to the Rhine the 1st & the 2nd Regiments respectively left 350 & 734 men to defend Erfurt; also 300 newly arrived reinforcements from Cherbourg were left at Erfurt. The Régiments artillerie de la marine fought at Hanau.

The decree of 17 July 1813 established an artillery park at Cherbourg. During 1813-14 officers from the Regimentswere employed in the defence of Erfurt & Torgau, others at Danzig, Antwerp, Dresden, Mayence, Genoa etc.

Of the 17,338 men sent to Germany, 2,412 were killed, 7,291 remained in German hospitals, 2,319 were prisoners or in rear areas, 571 were transferred to the Guard artillery, 1,084 left at Erfurt (this excludes the 300 reinforcments). On 7 November 1813 the regiments were reorgnaised and their effective strengths were: 1st: 557 men in 2 battalions; 2nd 1,897 men in 4 battalions; 3rd: 632 men in 3 battalions & 4th 575 men in 3 battalions. Brest & Toulon continued to act as depots for the 1st & 2nd Regiments; Valognes became the depot for the 3rd, and Abbeville for the 4th. All Regiments were supposed to comprise 5 battalions (the 5th acting as the depot battalion).

In January 1814 the regimental depots were ordered to send cadres to Paris, where they formed the 2nd Division of the Corps de Réserves de Paris. Marmont's Corps fought at Vauchamps (capturing 1,000men), Champaubert, & Montmirail. Others from the artillerie de la marine fought in the defence of France. By 5 May there remained just 695 effectives.

L'artillerie de la marine was reorganised on 1 July 1814 with the name Corps Royal des cannoniers de la marine. The Corps comprised a HQ of 2 personnel, 3 Regiments (1st had 3 battalions & the other two had 2 battalions each. All of the battalions had 6 companies each of 124 personnel. In times of war the battalions were to be raised to 10 companies each of 207 personnel), 5 compagnies d'ouvriers each of 132 personnel, 6 compagnies d'apprentis cannoniers each of 139 personnel and a number of officers who were employed as necessary in the 6 directions maritime (the 5 great ports plus Dunkirk), 4 founderies, 3 forges and 1 quality control workshop? (atelier de perfectionnement).

The Regiments were deployed as follows:
1st regiment: 1st battalion at Cherbourg; 2nd & 3rd at Brest.
2nd regiment: 2 battalions at Toulon.
3rd regiment: 1st battalion at Lorient; 2nd battalion at Rochefort.

One compagnie d'ouvriers was deployed at each port. Two compagnies d'apprentis cannoniers were deployed at Brest and 1 in each of the 4 other ports. 16 officers were detached to the foundries & workshops.

Details of the Regiment during the 100 days is fairly scant. Upon Napoleon's return 2 battalions (2nd of the 1st Regiment & 3rd of the 3rd Regiment) were sent to Paris and 1st battalion of the 2nd Regiment was sent to Lyon to put both places into state capable of being defended. A 4th battalion was mobilised and sent to La Vendée.

von Winterfeldt21 Dec 2014 5:58 a.m. PST

in case you like to read documentation form that time look at the

Annales Maritimes et Colonniales 1809 – 1815 tome 1er

link

p. 233 onwards

edmuel200021 Dec 2014 8:03 a.m. PST

I represented those units in my 15mm 1813 French army by buying normal French line infantry and painting them with black strapping, blue pants, and red pompoms (figs have sripped shakos, so no need to decide on cords).

Stoppage21 Dec 2014 9:53 a.m. PST

"To the water, it is the time!"

"A l'eau, c'est l'heure!"

Hello Sailor?

matthewgreen21 Dec 2014 10:57 a.m. PST

Am I right in thinking that these were the units that some Prussians mistook for French Guard? Something about their wearing of blue greatcoats rather than grey.

xxxxxxx21 Dec 2014 10:59 a.m. PST

???

French Navy (la marine nationale) motto is "Honneur, patrie, valeur, discipline!"
This is also used by the fusilier marins and commandos marine.

In the troupes de marine we still had "Et au Nom de Dieu – vive la coloniale!", but I suppose that is now considered not policitcally correct, on at least two grounds (possibly offensive to atheists and to the indigènes), and likely has been changed.

- Sasha
(part of whose mis-spent youth included secondment to the 2e RIMa.)

von Winterfeldt21 Dec 2014 12:27 p.m. PST

@matthewgreen

Yes indeed

Ducel121 Dec 2014 2:57 p.m. PST

"Napoleon's Last Grande Armee" has 2 excellent plates representing the naval artillerists during the 1813 campaign, Plate #84 (Winkler) and Plate #85 (Brun)

Murvihill21 Dec 2014 3:30 p.m. PST

The back of Nafziger's 1813 book had a picture of a Marine Artilleryman in blue great coat, bicorne and red epaulettes. I found some Essex figures that looked right in 15mm and painted up three battalions. No flag though, I'll have to look for a figure for that…

edmuel200021 Dec 2014 9:21 p.m. PST

These are often misrepresented as Marines of the Guard. There is an illustration of the charge of the Brandenburg Hussars at Mockern, for instance, showing Marines of the Guard. I believe there are some Prussian accounts that refer to them mistakenly as Marines of the Guard as well (an error that seems to get picked up and repeated).

Markconz21 Dec 2014 10:46 p.m. PST

What was their fighting quality like?

von Winterfeldt21 Dec 2014 11:23 p.m. PST

their fighting quality was quite good, according to Marmont they were his only units to be able to manoeuvre in the line.

So first class troops in my opinion, despite they had a lot of conscripts too.

huevans01122 Dec 2014 6:12 a.m. PST

link

This Osprey has a plate of a marine artilleryman with an artillery type uniform. But he has dark blue contra epaulettes, IIRC.

James Arnold22 Dec 2014 1:36 p.m. PST

The naval artillery regiments feature prominently in my new book, "Napoleon 1813: Decision at Bautzen" (currently at the bindery, due to arrive in Feb. 2015). For my cover, I paid for the right to reproduce a painting by the very talented Antoine Landais depicting a Prussian cavalry charge against the 2nd Naval Artillery Regiment at Lutzen.

Here is the link to his site: link

Cheers,

James Arnold
Napoleon Books

huevans01122 Dec 2014 2:09 p.m. PST

James, that's great news. All of 1813 could do w a fresh look and your books on Eylau and Friedland were excellent. I felt I gained a whole new level of understanding of both the Russians and la Grande Armee.

I see lead people22 Dec 2014 2:35 p.m. PST

Thanks to all who have contributed to this.

von Winterfeldt23 Dec 2014 5:57 a.m. PST

though I very highly esteem the works of Arnold – the colour plate of Landais is very poor

Prince of Essling26 Dec 2014 7:51 a.m. PST

Shakos for Artillerie de Marine

picture

Uniforms of naval troops including Artillerie de Marine (1800-15) at link

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