I see lead people | 20 Dec 2014 8:57 p.m. PST |
Did provisional battalions have elite companies? If no elite companies, did they still follow the regular 6 company format? I recall these units were not issued an eagles, but can anyone suggest what colours were carried in the field? A fanion would seem appropriate?? Thanks in advance.. |
Camcleod | 20 Dec 2014 10:00 p.m. PST |
Based on your other question, do you mean the ones in VIth Corps ?? Those Provisional Regts. were made up of 'spare' single Bns. from various Regts. with normal 6 co. organization including elite cos. They would have fanions as none of them were first Bns. See Nafziger's O.B. for Leipzig: PDF link |
Musketier | 21 Dec 2014 5:24 a.m. PST |
Those made up from National Guard in early 1814 had to earn the right to form elite companies, so would only have them after a few battles. Whether and how the correct items of uniform would be issued to them is anybody's guess. |
Art | 22 Dec 2014 9:03 p.m. PST |
G'day Gents, If I may be of assistance, battalions did not earn the right to form elite compagnies. The elite compagnies could only be formed in accordance to the regulations. It was a standard that was not relaxed, and was kept to the very end in 1815. As an example Napoleon in 1809 shuffled grenadier compagnies from the rear to those battalion about to enter the 1809 campaign. Bowden once explained that these elite compagnies in 1809 were in name only….wrong…he should have read Napoleons correspondence on how such compagnies are found. Best Regards Art |
Murvihill | 23 Dec 2014 10:23 a.m. PST |
I've read that the ex-National Guard regiments in 1813 weren't allowed to form elite companies at first as well, possibly from Nafziger's book. Can you provide a contrary reference? I can't remember the regiment numbers excactly, something like 142-148. |
Art | 23 Dec 2014 12:27 p.m. PST |
G'Day Gents On 09 January 1813 writes that it is his desire to create 22 regiments de ligne (135e to 156e) from 88 cohortes regiments. Each regiment will consist of 4 bataillons de guerre and 1 bataillon de depot. Each regiment with a compagnie d'artillerie. This then becomes Le decret du 12 Janvier 1813. I see nothing to state that a Garde Nationale de guerre changes from 8 sub-tactical factions, to a bataillon de guerre of 6 sub-tactical factions. Later with l'article 5 de l'ordonnance du 12 mai 1814, the entire French army is reorganized. It is during this period that la Garde Nationale now have elites compagnies created in a proper manner in accordance to the relgement 1792 and decret de 13 march 1804. Best Regards Art |
Musketier | 23 Dec 2014 1:15 p.m. PST |
While always happy to be corrected by those more knowledgeable, I rarely advance something completely off the top of my head. In this case, I stand by my post above, having read in the Vincennes archives about a year ago the correspondence between the War Ministry and a colonel who felt that his men had now earned the right, as per regulations (possibly the 1813 decree). Sorry I can't oblige with the exact reference, as I was researching something quite different. Will try and see whether I happened to photograph the papers in question, but it will take some time. |
Art | 23 Dec 2014 3:29 p.m. PST |
Perhaps you are confusing the Garde Nationale with Regiment de Marche ou Provisoire. -and said colonel was attempting to justify the appointments made on 9 September of each year, or submitted a list prior to. Best Regards Art |
von Winterfeldt | 24 Dec 2014 12:58 a.m. PST |
as I understand the regiments 135e to 156e were then regular infantry and should be of the usual structure of 2 elite and 3 center companies, at least that is what the History of the 151e de ligne says, I have to check the correspondance militaire of N. They weren't Garde Nationale any longer |
von Winterfeldt | 24 Dec 2014 3:02 a.m. PST |
should be of course 2 elite and 4 center companies |
Art | 24 Dec 2014 9:42 a.m. PST |
Merry Christmas Hans Karl, You are a better man than I…even using Gallica I could not find any Regimental Histories from any regiment, from 135e to 156e. One day I find nothing…then the next a jack-pot…but for now…nothing ;-) As an example I know that in 1813 the 151e Regiment was formed from the following: 7e cohorte du premier ban de la garde nationale 50e cohorte du premier ban de la garde nationale 51e cohorte du premier ban de la garde nationale 52e cohorte du premier ban de la garde nationale Le 21 juin 1814, le 151e regiment d'infanterie de ligne est licencié, et conformément à l'article 5 de l'ordonnance du 12 mai 1814: Le 1er bataillon est amalgamé, dans le 59e régiment d'infanterie de ligne. Le 2e bataillon est amalgamé, dans le 68e régiment d'infanterie de ligne. Les 3e et 5e bataillons sont amalgamés, dans le 21e régiment d'infanterie de ligne Apres en 24 aout 1814: Dissolution, alors que ses effectifs sont réduits à 70 officiers et 1000 hommes. With all that said, I was mistaken about 8 factions per battalion. Le LOI de 4 Aout 1791 states that the Garde Nationale will have 9 factions, and the LOI de 1 Mars 1792 states that they shall manoeuvrer que sur deux rangs. With the DECRET of 1806 they were organsized in Legions and Cohortes. Une Cohorte était composée de 10 Compagnies de 100 Gardes Nationaux. As an example 10 Oct 1813: 19e Division – Général de division Rochambeau Brigade – Général de brigade Lafitte 1/135th Line Regiment (26/250) 2/135th Line Regiment (9/245) 3/135th Line Regiment (12/252) 1/149th Line Regiment (27/270) 2/149th Line Regiment (9/210) 3/149th Line Regiment (10/236) Brigade – Général de brigade Harlet 1/150th Line Regiment (13/160) 2/150th Line Regiment (10/311) 3/150th Line Regiment (10/407) 1/155th Line Regiment (35/418) 2/155th Line Regiment (12/384) 3/155th Line Regiment (16/364) Please let me know what you find…I would be every interested. I hope you have a White Christmas…mine is green and rainy. Best Regards Art |
von Winterfeldt | 24 Dec 2014 11:27 a.m. PST |
Historique du 148e de Ligne link Should be available for download in the us and Historique du 151e Régiment d'Infanterie link Best is substitude google.de – the de against com google.com No White Christmas, but I am not sentimental in this way, I prefer it green and rainy ;-)), otherwise good wine Frizzantino, Muscato, Oltrepo and lovely Christmas mulled wine |
von Winterfeldt | 24 Dec 2014 11:36 a.m. PST |
and from our mentor and friend Steve 135 Descoings. 135e de ligne – historique du régiment, d'après les documents officiels. 1891. link 139 Clerc. Historique succinct du 139 regiment d'infanterie link 145-152 Simond. Historique des nouveaux régiments créés par la loi du 25 juil. 1887 – Infanterie. 1889. link 148 Heumann. Historique du 148e Régiment d'Infanterie. link 150 Historique des 150ème et 350ème RI. PDF link 151 Brun. Au Crépuscule de l'Empire – l'exemple du 151e régiment d'infanterie de ligne. 2013. rha.revues.org/7867 151 Schmitt. Historique du 151e régiment d'infanterie, rédigé en 1893 – Complété jusqu'au 1er mars 1901, 1901. link |
Art | 24 Dec 2014 1:45 p.m. PST |
Bonjour Hans-Karl, Thank you for the information, and Vox paid me a visit also. So you are correct that they went to six sub factions in 1813, then the Garde Nationale went to ten sub factions after the fall of Napoleon in 1815. Have a Frizzantino on me… ;-) As for the provisional regiments, they may have used the 1812 version of the battalion flags…using a military numerical system for each battalion within the order of battle. -if nothing else that's how I would have battalion flags for my provisional regiments. Battalions from 1808 onward with only four compagnies would only form colonne par peloton because it needed mass. As a matter of fact, Napoleon was a double-dealer with their general principles when ordering the entire army to form 2 ranks on 13 October 1813, whether it be en ligne ou meme colonne par division. Napoleon goes on to states that the third rank is irrelevant (since they are now fighting mainly defensive battles), and it shall give "the greatest advantage" for a battalion of 500 men, with the impression of a battalion of 750 men. This effect shall have a great impact, because the enemy will not know of this nouvelle ordonnance. One hour after the receipt of this order, everything must be arranged. Napoleon then goes on to say that a colonne par division gave a colonne a depth of six ranks and three more for the serre-files (total of nine ranks). Napoleon by means of including the serre-files into the equation of depth, he now meets the requirements for mass in any particular circumstance that require shock ;-) Merry Christmas Art |
SCOTT BOWDEN | 25 Dec 2014 8:39 a.m. PST |
Art, you misrepresented me…again. |
Art | 25 Dec 2014 9:39 a.m. PST |
G'Day Scott, Well Noted… In which case I apologize. for your name was brought up, to be used as proof / validation for the argument presented. Hence I must take full burden of guilt for listening to them…or using unreliable second had sources, and even unprofessional of me. Sincerely and best regards Art |
SCOTT BOWDEN | 25 Dec 2014 12:34 p.m. PST |
Art, Accepted and thank you. Anyone who has read my book in question and verified the footnote sources would know that I had consulted the original documents. Merry Christmas! Scott |