"Acw rule set?" Topic

Long time fan of the period and finally getting started on my armies!
Be a good bit before I muster a sizeable force but in the meantime need help figuring out which rules are best for me.

I want to fight regiments. Probly at most a brigade per side, plus a few artillery pieces and maybe a cavalry regiment for flavor. Maybe when I'm an old man I'll be able to refight all of Gettysburg but need to start smaller.

I think I would like to differentiate between troops (US cav and USSS)armed with repeating rifles. Possibly rules for detached skirmishers or entire regiment deploying as skirmish screen.

Anything spring to mind that would work for me?

Johnny Reb 2 or 3. Regimental Fire and Fury does not have skirmishers in the rules (at least the main rules).

Yes – Johnny Reb 2 or 3 is probably your best bet for that size battle

Fire and fury is just boring, put on a disorder, roll a die take off a disorder. Units fight to last stand. Generals attaching and fight in the front ranks, rarely ever happened. Entire brigades running out of ammo, just old mechanics from the 80's

But Cleburne or Dave Gamer, is Johnny Reb a good game? Do you play it and enjoy it?

The size of your forces match what I know about Longstreet. But I don't have those rules so cannot comment on them further.

Johnny Reb will give you a very good game at that level. Some of the concepts are a bit odd(First Fire), but is almost always fun.

Regimental Fire and Fury.

Regimental Fire & Fury will give you a great game at that level (the derisive comments above, while hardly common view, are about the original brigade level F&F). It's true that regimental skirmishers at the company level aren't treated, although there are optional rules for them in the first scenario book, and you can use what the game calls "Extended Line" to model regimental level skirmish lines. However, to be honest, I consider that omission a positive factor, as faffing about with micro skirmish stands can bring a game to a crawl by emphasizing a false level of micro-decisions.

I haven't played JR, but it is a long-standing set of rules that goes into more detail than RF&F, so you probably won't go wrong there either. However, I have to warn you off Longstreet – it's essentially an imagi-nations treatment of the ACW, with an intriguing campaign system unfortunately shackled to a "Gotcha!" card-dominated system.

Cheers,

Christopher

Check out Johnny Reb III. From what you descibed, this might be what you want.

Black Powder and Rank and File both give good games at this level.

You can check out some Fire & Fury info (both Brigade and Regimental level) on the site:

fireandfury.com

Black Powder, should you choose to put the time in researching the army lists in, can give a good game.

Johnny Reb III gives a great game once you get used to the system. The rulebook is badly organized but if you stick with it (it initially took me two full weeks to read and parse the rules) you will be rewarded with superb game play and lots of tactical challenges.

My "Rules Directory" project provides summaries of most all of the ACW rules sets out there:

link

This includes ground/time scale, basing, outlines of mechanics, etc.

A brigade per side you say? Black Powder sort of falls down on small games. It is designed for big games.

Regimental Fire and Fury would work though a game like that would likely be over pretty quick. We are talking something like 4 Regiments per side with about 4-6 stands each.

Rank and File should work fine. So would JR2 or 3.

There are several other games out there that might or might not do the trick. I would definitely check out the rules directory. It should give you plenty of reviews on ACW games in that scale.

Regimental Fire and Fury, Johnny Reb 2 and 3, and Longstreet all meet the requirements you set out.

Longstreet's campaign system specifically puts you in command of 3 infantry regiments (10 bases), a cavalry regiment (8 bases) and a 3-base battery of artillery in 1861, and then has you fighting a series of battles from 1861 to 1865, receiving replacements to make up for losses.

If you want to see what Longstreet is like before deciding, a free "Lite" version is available for download from Sam Mustafa's website.

The Polemos rules from Baccus cover playing with either regiments or brigades as the basic units.

There is also "Honor and Glory" which you can obtain by registering with the relevant Yahoo group (search for the name). The author makes them available as a free PDF, asking that in return you make a voluntary donation to a charity of your choice.

"Black Powder sort of falls down on small games. " I disagree. Consider your unit to be a company, your brigade to be a regiment and you can easily have a brigade level game. The game is abstract enough that it is scalable.

Excellent resource extra crispy! And thanks for all the useful info everyone. Sounds like Johnny reb is a contender although it's description sounds abit intimidating and complex. Seems to have a love it or hate it vibe…
I found something called Gettysburg soldiers on Google but not sure if it would work for the small battles I have in mind. They use it's simplicity as a selling point so kinda the other end of the spectrum from Johnny reb it appears. Anyone tried it?

rooter, you can find us as topic of conversation in past TMP message boards by searching for Gettysburg Soldiers
Here are a couple threads I recall:

TMP link

TMP link

These rules are designed for conventions, novices, introduction to ACW gaming, school groups, etc, easy to learn and provide fast play. Someone once called us Fire $ Fury Lite!

I'm disappointed that extra crispy has not added GS to his list yet, I gave him a complimentary copy two years ago.

We still have the 2 copies for $20 USD special price, so you can have a copy for each side of the table.

Larry GettysburgSoldiers.com

Oops – Forgot about "Guns at Gettysburg" from Partizan Press. Same level as JR3

Guns at Gettysburg gives a very good game at regimental level, and there are four scenario books for the rules. Another good game is Scott Monsour's Rally 'Round the Flag.

They Can't Hit an Elephant by Too Fat Lardies should work. Each stand is roughly 100 men and grouped by regiments. Differentiation is made for good and bad rifles, repeaters and smooth bores. Arty is tracked by individual gun but with each stand representing multiple guns.

Usually conventions will have more than one ACW game going on. Lots of conventions in adjacent states to Alabama. Play in a few of them. You can experiment with rules without buying a single miniature. If there any clubs in your area, show up at a meeting and get into the circle. Visit a gaming shop and see what is playing (be prepared for little ACW interest and be pleased if it is big). And I vote for JRIII.

Yeah I suppose I'll eventually just have to try a few games to figure out what I like. I always complain my wife doesn't try on clothes till she gets home and then returns them if they don't fit which seems silly. Same concept I suppose, except maybe rules are harder to return;) not too much interest in historical other than ww2 around here so I will basically be the driving force toward ACW I'm guessing. I'm kinda not at a place in life where I go to conventions so going to just have to try a set "blind"
I'll thinking I might try Gettysburg soldiers as it seems reasonable in price and complexity. If it doesn't satisfy I'll graduate to Johnny reb!

rooter,
extra crispy's site is a great resource. definitely give it a read.
Gettysburg soldiers is a great set, good fun, but extremely simple (not really a bad thing though) if you like how it plays, I suggest graduating to Guns at Gettysburg, as it seems to be a "fleshed out version" of them, i.e. they play similarly.
quick summary from memory:
Gettysburg Soldiers: *Recomended
players roll off for initiative per phase. (important that)
inf move 6" cav 12" shooting is 2d6 and a few modifiers with the result cross referenced to the # of stands shooting, which gives you a # of dead stands. melee is kinda the same, opposed 2d6 with modifiers.
morale is pretty much a combat effect, off a little bit or off and need a general to rally you. good fun simple game with piles of death. GREAT price and the book is a handy size.
Guns at Gettysburg; *Recommended
is similar to the above, but is written for single based figs instead of stands. (not really an issue) has an order system, not complicated. shooting is the same, 2d6 vs figs shooting to get # of dead. all in all its a more fleshed out version of the above,(my opinion) and they compliment each other nicely. this one has a points system you can use. beautiful book too.
Regimental Fire and Fury:
Ive played this extensively, and found it wanting. that being said, a great many people love it, so it must be a personal thing. basically everything is done on 1d10 and a chart. roll to see how well your troops can maneuver this turn, move, shooting is 1d10 on a chart with the fire points(number of figs with what armament) cross referenced. melee is a roll with some modifiers. all of these have effects on a chart that you apply. beautifully put together it is perhaps one of the best presented set of rules out there if you consider the diagrams are great. my only real point of contention is that all that ever seems to happen in my experience is "loose 1 stand disordered" disorder halves firepower. its very… grindy. its probably just me though. i don't think you can go wrong with it per se
Black Powder: * kinda recommended.
this is one of my favorite games. basically you frame your orders "the stonewall brigade shall advance to the rail fence to engage the damyankees!" and roll 2d6 vs your generals rating to see how well they carry out your orders. shooting is the roll to hit roll to save mechanism, but no figures are removed, its all "morale based" close combat is kinda the same. there is a "break chart" to see when you retreat and when you off. it has the great advantage of being able to design units from the ground up. its a very fun beer and pretzels game. a great many "unit attributes" that give flavor. has a cursory points system if you care to use it.
Jonny Reb III
played once 6 yrs ago, can't remember much but remember i didn't like it personally. i shan't comment on it.
Across a Deadly Field:
Im still reading it, so ill give you what I've read so far: HOLY ABBREVIATIONS BATMAN! keep one hand in the glossary. besides that, it actually seems ok. there is a reaction system in it. shooting is roll some dice (this number changes based on range, ect.) add fire points and get effect, from morale check, mc-1, loose figs, ect. close combat is done the same kinda. it can be intimidating to read at first but it looks to be shaping up to be a decent set. not played yet. GORGEOUS book. like on my top 3 best looking. if you are interested, ill post again when i finish it.
They Couldn't Hit an Elephant:
ok, its been a while since i had anything to do with this, but basically there is a card system to activate your leaders, who activate their brigades. is the only set with a dedicated system of "blinds" i.e. you can't tell what my forces are or where they are. casualties by figure, the Lardies make good solid games so I'm sure this plays well if you are into their style, which I am.

did I miss any? if you need more info on any of these, just ask and ill dig the books out. I also suggest you check out Altar of Freedom. its WAY above the level you want to play but you can use the same figure collection and its a great game. the plus side is if you are introducing the period, your players will get names they recognize "steve, you are general Longstreet today, here is your mission"
hope it helped
Joe
P.S. sorry about the bleeps. apparently b u g g e r is a bad word. I'm American so it isn't to me but…

However, I have to warn you off Longstreet – it's essentially an imagi-nations treatment of the ACW, with an intriguing campaign system unfortunately shackled to a "Gotcha!" card-dominated system.

Well here's a thing. After many years and different forums I actually find something that CAT and I don't agree on! Must be the Holiday Season! ;o)

Lets start with the "imagi-nations" bit.

What exactly is that? There's nothing in Longstreet I can think of which is made up, in terms of it not happening in the Civil War and the Civil War happened, so what's "imagi-nations" about it?

Then we have the "shackled to a "Gotcha!" card-dominated system".

Yes the play involves the use of cards with various attributes and to the extent that without these cards its not possible to play the game its "card dominated".

However, unlike other card systems, simple matters like movement and firing are not dependent on having the appropriate card. You don't sit around frozen in time until the correct card appears!

What the cards amount to are all those +1 for this and +2 for that items that generally occupy several sides of playsheets plus some friction of war on top.

If they have a fault it is that the friction events are not truly random, as although they come into the players hand in a random fashion, he gets to decided when they are employed.

That said there are not many of these cards in the overall deck and if you chose not to employ any of them, by mutual consent, the game would function perfectly well without them. It is not "shackled" in the literal sense at all.

So like players with any other rules, where the author has decided that such and such is worth +2 to the firing dice, all you are doing with the rest of the cards is waiting for, or trying to create, an opportunity to use the card that give s you that +2.

I played Regimental Fire and Fury right from the pre publication test versions and the final published set were a real disappointment to me.

The rework of the fire mechanism to end the stupidity of the Fire Points in the original game where you could amass 90 points and the roll a "1" and get no casualties at all was more than welcome but in other aspects RFF is just a few alterations and changes of nomenclature in the appropriate places.

A much better set than the original but it doesn't provide the feeling of managing Regiments within a Brigade any more than Longstreet.

No skirmishers (as standard) formations that didn't exist, no use of Regulating Battalions, simplistic formation changes etc. poor movement over terrain, all things that a Brigade or Division commander had to contend with are not dealt with in a testing manner.

OK at the end of the day if one prefers rule set A to rule set B that's good enough but knocking down Longstreet when RFF doesn't really do a better job is another.

Longstreet is what it is, warning people off it doesn't make RFF better.

ccmatty, I play JR2 almost exclusively, and have enjoyed it for decades. It is very detailed and can incorporate just about every aspect of regimental combat. JR3 is only slightly more abstract, going for more of a grand-tactical feel. It sacrifices just a little detail in order to play larger battles. But not much detail really. I don't have too much experience with other rules sets.

I personally like the level of detail and rules for JR2. Once you get a group of people that know the rules, large battles aren't that difficult. Managing a whole division is no problem. But just playing a brigade with 4 regiments and maybe a battery is fun too.