Northern Monkey | 16 Dec 2014 3:33 a.m. PST |
The quote in the title was taken from a discussion on TMP about a set of WWII rules. It made me wonder, does the publisher of a rule set really influence how successful a game is? Are there really rules you wouldn't buy because they are published by a certain company? Or, conversely, are there rules you buy because they are published by a certain company? |
Cerdic | 16 Dec 2014 3:59 a.m. PST |
The comment may be reflecting on the marketing muscle of a company like Osprey? |
Blutarski | 16 Dec 2014 4:02 a.m. PST |
MARKETING rules the hobby nowadays and exerts the same influence as elsewhere. Unlike days of yore, there is today an over-proliferation of rules on almost every period. Marketing now dictates which rule sets achieve broad acceptance. Examples of this effect in the miniatures hobby can be seen in the rise of the WH40K and FoW gaming systems – rules which have come to effectively dominate their periods/genres despite their ridiculous prices and (IMO) stunning design mediocrity. B |
uglyfatbloke | 16 Dec 2014 4:21 a.m. PST |
Marketing muscle is most assuredly the answer. Same applies to straight history. An Osprey book – even if it is dreadful and some of them are – will invariably sell many more copies than something much better from a less ubiquitous publishing house. |
79thPA | 16 Dec 2014 5:19 a.m. PST |
Osprey is a well establish publisher, they have name recognition, a marketing budget, and they have a wide reach, so yea, jumping in bed with a company like that will greatly increase your chances of success. |
Jeff Ewing | 16 Dec 2014 5:21 a.m. PST |
I think what the poster meant was, "If this ruleset was marketed by Osprey it would be more popular." It's not a question of aversion or attraction as your question suggests, but simply one of having the ruleset brought to the buyer's notice. |
Lawn Dart | 16 Dec 2014 5:49 a.m. PST |
Osprey books are for sale in my local hobby shop in America because their books are available from the big distributers. Not many other WWII games are… |
Frothers Did It And Ran Away | 16 Dec 2014 6:30 a.m. PST |
I think the thread the OP refers to was using the relative popularity of Bolt Action and Chain of Command as the basis of the discussion. Too Fat Lardies have a very limited marketing budget but CoC has proven very popular, on a recent Meeples and Miniatures show the author said they had sold about 5000 copies. How many copies do Osprey rulebooks sell? Dux Bellorum probably did quite well. A World in Flames, which came out at the same time, seems to have made less of an impact. The web has made marketing a much less money oriented subject, especially in a niche market like gaming. While its ceetainly important it seems that it is equally true that quality will out and that word of mouth can equal the impact of flashy ads. Look at all the Mongoose games that had a big fanfare but died a death. |
Tommy20 | 16 Dec 2014 6:37 a.m. PST |
Conversely, I've been itching to try a certain ruleset lately, but it's only available directly from the publisher, overseas. I could, and probably will, buy it online (eventually). However, if it were available at my FLGS, like Osprey's offerings, I would have had it in hand weeks, if not months ago. |
cosmicbank | 16 Dec 2014 7:04 a.m. PST |
More people may see a rule set from a big publisher, they may buy it and play it. But it is support that keeps it going, also the rules must be well written and playable (not suck). Having a bunch of folks out there teaching you game helps alot. The lardettes are a good example, Of course the battle front guys are the best at it. With great power (and cash) comes options. |
ernieR | 16 Dec 2014 8:09 a.m. PST |
one thing about Osprey rules , they're less expensive than most others out there . i've bought a couple of them just based on subject matter and not because i've read several reviews or played the game at a convention or had it recommended by a friend . |
thosmoss | 16 Dec 2014 8:35 a.m. PST |
God Bless Small Business, and Support Your Local Game Store … but … Osprey is easily available through online discount book houses. |
OSchmidt | 16 Dec 2014 8:48 a.m. PST |
Dear Flintloque Hey, try my rules, they're free and I eat the postage. Gotta like simple rules and good games (12 pages, total, everything in that from cover art to tables. Also have to have a sense of humor about gaming. |
uglyfatbloke | 16 Dec 2014 9:38 a.m. PST |
Always interested in WW2 rules…anything fast and simple that might wean my better half off Bolt Action…which I don't mind,. but it takes a lot of jigging around if you like WW2 history. |
olicana | 16 Dec 2014 9:40 a.m. PST |
Yes, it probably will make the rules more popular. There is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make the rules the best rules but, it sure gets up the nose of the anti-professional hobby lobby. |
axabrax | 16 Dec 2014 9:46 a.m. PST |
Given what they've produced, I am actually skeptical when I hear a set is produced by a Osprey. Their production values are stunning, but the sets I've bought have been uneven at best. The last pirate rule set I bought was quite disappointing. I wouldn't buy a set of their rules again without several positive reviews. On the flip side, their success just demonstrates that marketing, glossy pictures, and impressive games tables, actually do work to help sell products. |
Mserafin | 16 Dec 2014 10:58 a.m. PST |
Are there really rules you wouldn't buy because they are published by a certain company? No, but there are rules I won't buy because of who wrote them. |
Stosstruppen | 16 Dec 2014 11:13 a.m. PST |
I would not say Osprey is cornering the market regarding rules. Certainly they have a marketing edge, but I don't think that is doing all that much for them. As stated above, they may sell more copies but as far as usage, I don't think they are industry leaders. |
Weasel | 16 Dec 2014 11:56 a.m. PST |
Marketing and glossy pages will always help. That and Ospreys stuff actually shows up in game stores. |
OSchmidt | 16 Dec 2014 12:44 p.m. PST |
Cant speak to Osprey Rules as I never heard of them till this thread. I know Osprey though and while the pictures are great (though I suspect they are favorable interpretations of the real thing, their history is all over the map as far as quality and for me that's a turn off. |
Weasel | 16 Dec 2014 1:23 p.m. PST |
I think the best attitude towards Ospreys history stuff is "a decent place to start if you have nothing else". |
OSchmidt | 16 Dec 2014 2:31 p.m. PST |
Dear Weasel Yup that's about it. |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 16 Dec 2014 2:33 p.m. PST |
I think Osprey's recognizable brand name helps, but it isn't that simple because it's really due to a number of factors whether a rules system like Bolt Action is successful or not. The most important factor is marketing (which is brand name related) and how available or widespread a product is (which isn't determined by brand name). The main reason Bolt Action is popular (other than the fact that it's a fun set of rules, of course) is because (like Warhammer and FOW) it is widely available. You can find and buy BA rules and Warlord products at more FLGS, online distributors and Ebay vendors than competing rules and products. Some will argue that this isn't true and it's regional, but I'm speaking from my own experience here in the US. Do you think Games Workshop and Battlefront were household names before they got big? I don't think so. You got to market your product and make them available aggressively. That takes resources and capital most small companies don't have. Warlord is big in historical 28mm. |
Mserafin | 16 Dec 2014 2:48 p.m. PST |
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15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 16 Dec 2014 3:29 p.m. PST |
Yes, Osprey is light-weight and not serious history. Some of their newer releases like 'German Fallschirmjager vs. British Red Devils' increasingly make them the History Channel of the publishing world. But like the History Channel, they are commercial and popular. |
Wolfhag | 16 Dec 2014 6:53 p.m. PST |
Is anyone or any company doing some type of affiliate marketing? I think it would be great for players that promote, advertise and buy games to be able to get in on the business end to make some money. I've seen programs that will set up a website and a portal for orders to go through and pay automatically. This would be a type of guerrilla marketing to compete against companies with big advertising and marketing budgets and established distributors. Wolfhag |
vtsaogames | 16 Dec 2014 8:00 p.m. PST |
The more copies of a book that you can print, the lower the price per book (or any printed product, like a game). If you produce lots of products the printer is going to print your stuff sooner. So Osprey has the budget to market their products, can charge a lower price per unit and has the attention of the printers (unless they do their own printing). Those are advantages. I don't have a problem buying rules from any game company at all, but Osprey has an edge over small companies. |
basileus66 | 17 Dec 2014 12:07 a.m. PST |
Marketing sounds like a dirty word, but it is the bread and butter of any successful business nowadays. Thanks to the Internet, the offer of products has increased a thousand-fold. We are spoiled for choice. There are literally hundreds of potential rulesets that we can choose. To suceed you need to make your product visible. However, Osprey does something else besides marketing: they offer a product with high quality values at affordable prices. It's that combination of attractive product and good marketing what makes them successful. |
Northern Monkey | 17 Dec 2014 1:09 a.m. PST |
But is the product high value. Like all osprey books, the content is very hit and miss, there is no consistent format, osprey provide no after sales support for the rules (some authors do, some do not) and, using heir traditional format, the rules are brief when compared with most other publishers, |
kevanG | 17 Dec 2014 8:58 a.m. PST |
"You can find and buy BA rules and Warlord products at more FLGS, online distributors and Ebay vendors than competing rules and products." …….until they shut down when they have saturated the local bubblegum wargamer's market. Wargame's shops in Scotland shut down with regular monotomony. The places that survive don't specifically serve the wargames market. It isnt big enough. "No, but there are rules I won't buy because of who wrote them." I was very much like this once, but Sam mustafa changed my mind that you can dislike a set of rules , but the guy can come up with a gem. and there are also rules I will seek out because of who writes them….but I have to have an interest in the period. On saying that, Sam Mustapha and Martin Goddard have got me playing ACW and wishing to play again….despite having no interest in it generally. Osprey havent made me wish to play any period nor Warlord's publications. Irony isnt lost that figure ranges from warlord and perry have made me want to wargame periods when their rule writing could put me off wargaming itself for good. |
basileus66 | 17 Dec 2014 10:59 a.m. PST |
Northern Monkey Yes, it is, at least editorially. I have been trying to convince one of my pals to play Medievals and never succeed until he saw Osprey's Lion Rampant. Just looking at the plates he became inspired and now he is collecting some Fireforge Teutonics to fight against my Mongols. Agreed that Lion Rampant is not as accurate as I would like to be as a representation of Medieval warfare, but it is fun and a good place to start if you are not too involved in collecting a two-hundred figures army. |
Wolfhag | 19 Dec 2014 12:29 p.m. PST |
There's no doubt about it, the visuals sell. That means any person wanting to sell a set of rules needs to be sure to pad his rule book with stunning high quality photos of museum quality painted miniatures and terrain. That's just the way it is. If people don't like it they won't buy it and vice versa. Wolfhag |
BlackWidowPilot | 19 Dec 2014 1:24 p.m. PST |
I think the best attitude towards Ospreys history stuff is "a decent place to start if you have nothing else". The best way to evaluate the validity of an Osprey book is that after reading it you investigate the source citations, and by that I don't mean stopping after you've merely checked the bibliography.
Osprey titles have their uses, and some are better than others depending upon the researcher's level of analytical tradecraft they've applied to their effort. Merely castigating Osprey as a whole and out of hand is no better than asserting the notion that all Osprey titles are ostensibly excellent history sources. Leland R. Erickson Metal Express metal-express.net |
specforc12 | 22 Dec 2014 1:06 a.m. PST |
A big publishing house, especially one that has a captive audience in the military history category, like Osprey, or say Stackpole books, have a huge advantage in marketing over self-publishers or one-off wargame sources. From a marketing perspective, Osprey has been well-established for many decades, with well-known historian/authors, with big reputations. Since an outfit like Osprey has distributorship with almost every major bookstore chain, hobby shop, and gaming store over the globe the can flood the market and have huge exposure. Of course, that will have a huge impact on the success of almost any game they market. They have access to the best illustrators, libraries of archived photos, you name it, and advertising budgets in all the key magazines – how can they miss. The can even publish "crap" like Bolt Action and get away with it – it's got great eye candy. However, I've been sucked in by their Force on Force series and compendiums to the max – why? because it looks promising coming from Osprey and the eye candy is first class as is the graphic design of all their publications. I have yet to play this Force on Force game and it shows promise, though I've heard mixed reviews from people. Sorry, if I offended anyone regarding Bolt Action, but to me it's not really a true "wargame" and certainly not a "simulation" at all. But, I understand why people play it after reading countless debates regarding this and similar genre games, like Battegroup Normandy, or Chain of Command. I'm a very visual person and gravitate to the slick publications because I like looking at them and reading their approach to all aspects of a wargame. Your average small gaming company or self-publisher can't really compete on an equal footing with a powerhouse like that and all their accessibility. I hope to publish my Tank Combat wargame this spring, but I have no illusions of competing with the likes of Osprey or Battlefront (Flames of War)! I hopefully will appeal, I realize to more of the true military tactician, realism type wargamer, which is not really in vogue now, but I'm not trying to be another wanna-be. My project with the help of WOLFHAG is more complex and more for purists, so there will be some who will like to try this very authetic simulation. My goal is to streamline the complexity and find a balance between correct combat operations and realistic combat results, but moreover to keep the chess-like decision-making wholely in the control of the player. The game doesn't dictate how you play, but rather gives the correct tools in which to display your tactical prowess in as transparent a way possible, and keep you engaged with the why's of what your doing. No obscurity in the mechanics or results. |
mashrewba | 16 Jan 2015 12:43 p.m. PST |
I was so excited about Ospreys move into rules but apart from Bolt Action, Dux Bellorum and Lion Rampant most of them are very disappointing . Can't believe I actually bought 'Land of the Free' -at least it was at reduced price and as for FOG… |