wargame insomniac | 14 Dec 2014 10:04 a.m. PST |
I doubt I am the only one that has long been fascinated by Napoleon's La Garde Imperiale. With the release of Victrix plastic boxsets for Grenadiers/Chasseurs/Middle Guard, collecting them in 28mm for the first time now feels achievable / affordable. Did have some questions though: 1) UNIT SIZE I like my 28mm units as Battalions, and I like the look of 36 man units for French infantry (i.e. 6 bases of 6 figures for each company, with 15mm frontage), thus representing full strength French infantry battalion of 720 men at 1:20.
What would be the correct size for a FULL STRENGTH Grenadier/Chasseur Imperial Guard battalion in 1815? (I know from Waterloo Order of Battle that actual field strength of battalions varied considerably). 2) HEADWEAR I have spent a lot of time googling the various uniforms and headwear of Old/Middle/Young Guard in various years. I can't find much info that is specific to 1815.
What headwear would the 3rd/4th Régiment of Grenadiers and Chasseurs have worn at Waterloo? Bearskin or Shako? (I am not bothered whether you call them Old or Middle Guard, just interested in best headwear to model them in 28mm specifially for Waterloo). 3) READING MATERIAL In my browsing I have seen a few people recommend books by Henry Lachouque. Was "La Garde imperiale (Collection Les Grands moments de notre histoire)" ever printed in English??
What about Lachouque's "Anatomy of Glory: Napoleon and His Guard – A Study in Leadership"? I can see a oouple of printings – 1978 and 1997. Is there any difference in content between them? Do they have much information on Imperial Guard in Waterloo Campaign? I know that Napoleon's Imperial Guard can cause much debate. Please could you keep any answers focussed just on 1815. Thanks for any help you can offer.
James |
von Winterfeldt | 14 Dec 2014 10:26 a.m. PST |
You should rear the book by Juhel dealing with the French Guard from Elba to the end of the war in 1815, he deals with a lot of issues in detail and destructs a lot of mythical wrong information – he suggest all 4 regiments had bearskin caps with the exception that the cloth patch or cul de singe was of black leather |
deadhead | 14 Dec 2014 11:13 a.m. PST |
Now that I never heard before. On a Colpack for the HA of the Garde or their Chasseurs a Cheval for example….yes. A cover for the whole bearskin of infantry I have (rarely) seen….odd not more common frankly. But I have never seen just the cloth patch replaced with the leather cover. Knowing you, I suspect you are right though! Juhel? Don't know that one….Google here I come |
Camcleod | 14 Dec 2014 11:25 a.m. PST |
The Mont Ste. Jean site appears to have up-to-date info. All are in bearskins. Bn. strengths varied between 500 and 600. link |
Marcel1809 | 14 Dec 2014 11:55 a.m. PST |
You can find a lot of info about organisation/strenghts etc in Adkins book: the Waterloo Companion. Strenghts around 500 to 600 hundred, (24, 32 figures) the 1st regts being stronger than the 3rd /4th etc. Very good info on the Guard at waterloo can be found in the series Waterloo 1815 Les Carnets de la Campagne (mainly in French) with excellent colour plates by Patrice Courcelle. Especially nr 7 and nr9 dealing with the latter stages of the battle. I always thought "An Anatomy of Glory" was an adapted(by Anne SK Brown) version of Lachouque's French book. It is not so much focussed on 1815 though. The guard should have been equipped with bearskins but there was a shortage so not all the guards in 3rd and 4th regt had them (some odd bicornes and a shako or two look nice in an 1815 wargames guard unit (see Perry's figures) The black leather patch mentioned by von W. is actually a cover normally worn on top of the patch to protect the embroidery (like a shako cover) but could have been worn also to hide the fact that the embroidery was not (yet) there. After all the guard had to be (re)organised very quickly, not an easy task (just look how long it takes for uniform changes to take effect even today) |
Marcel1809 | 14 Dec 2014 12:02 p.m. PST |
Adkins and some others claim that both batallions of the 4th chasseurs were combined into one at waterloo due to losses at Ligny. Making it a supersize btn. of 800 plus troops,some forty figures in a wargames unit (looking very impressive) I have, however not seen this claim in any source material I am familiar with. But as I said it looks nice on the field. |
von Winterfeldt | 14 Dec 2014 12:03 p.m. PST |
seemingly the ill equippend 3th and 4t regiments – head gear is wrong according to Juhel link a must read in case anybody is interested about the Garde Impériale in 1815 – unfortunatley seemingly completly ignored
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Marcel1809 | 14 Dec 2014 12:24 p.m. PST |
Due to the short period of time between mobilisation and Waterloo itself it will remain a mistery exactly how different units were equipped. Most in bearskin, probably, all, rather unlikely. as to wargames units it remains a matter of choice. I like to have the 1st regts very much in regulation uniform and the rest gradually with more tattered looks. |
deadhead | 14 Dec 2014 1:17 p.m. PST |
How well would a book on the Imp Garde in 1815 do, if printed in English? Imagine the demand for what is surely a "hot topic". A fascinating period. In time for next year…surely someone can see the potential for this. Ignored, because most of us who complacently speak English can only just get beyond a menu and wine bar in French. Hotel check in and airports/car hire I can cope with. Beyond that it is schoolboy knowledge! I am sad. My real interest is First and Second Restauration (to use French spelling) and the French units created. No idea why. |
wargame insomniac | 14 Dec 2014 2:14 p.m. PST |
Thanks for all the replies and comments. @von Winterfeldt – thanks – I'll keep an eye out for that book. @Camcleod – thanks – that was exactly what I was hoping for. Specific to 1815 rather than wider periods covered by other prints / books that I had found previously – bookmarked!! @Marcel1809 – thanks – great – so I would be ok to use Bearskins for 3rd/4th regiments of Grenadiers/Chasseurs – that suits me perfectly. I was trying to work out how to base the Imperial Guard given that 4 Companies per Battalion (vs 6 Companies for Line Battalions). 24 man units means that I could do 4 bases of 6 each. 32 man units means that I could do 4 bases of 8 each. @deadhead – I know what you mean. So rusty. 20-25 years ago I was fluent enough to be able to read Le Monde and understand most of it. Now….. :( Cheers James |
xxxxxxx | 14 Dec 2014 3:26 p.m. PST |
"4 Companies per Battalion" Well, really 8 pelotons per battalion. But, the middle guard "oddness" was not limited to the 4e chasseurs, the 4e grenadiers also fielded only 1 battalion. I think this was due to a lack of sufficient other ranks (as there were plenty of officers to form the 2nd battalion of the 4e grenadiers). I will be eager to be corrected, but I have long doubted that the losses from Ligny were really the cause of fielding only 3 battalions of middle guard chasseurs. I think it was the inability to get enough men to finish organizing 4 battalions of grenadiers – and then a decision that there would be three battalions of each of grenadier and chasseurs. As to having a giant oversize battalion …. I really doubt it. I would have supposed that the 3 battalions of middle guard chasseurs equalized when formed on 18 June. In his retirement, Napoléon wrote about infantry organization, proposing rather large battalions that would form as 18 pelotons. I have long wondered if he got this idea from the case of the middle guard a Waterloo, where 3 battalions each of chasseurs and grenadiers might have been formed as 18 pelotons each (36 pelotons total). This would explain why the 4th battalion of chasseurs was "amalgamated", even though there were enough officers and men to form a (small) second battalion in the 4e chasseurs. If Art Pendragon or Hans Karl or Jacob Samek would care to speculate, or add evidence of which I am unaware, I would really appreciate it. - Sasha |
Mserafin | 14 Dec 2014 4:13 p.m. PST |
I've checked in Scott Bowden's "Armies at Waterloo," and he shows two battalions of the 4th Chasseurs at the beginning of the campaign with a total of 30 officers and 1,041 men. The 4th Grenadiers only have one battalion with 27 officers and 493 men. I don't know how credible people on this forum find Bowden (certainly some of you have much more time to devote to this than I, and better resources), but I'm throwing it in as grist for the mill. |
Milhouse | 14 Dec 2014 6:07 p.m. PST |
My understanding was always that the 4th grenadiers had the mixed head gear . |
von Winterfeldt | 15 Dec 2014 12:08 a.m. PST |
The book by Juhel is out for a long time, my interest for 1815 is only superficial, but seemingly he did very good research and found out interesting information, such as Geenadiers à Cheval still in the old Imperial uniform coat. |
deadhead | 15 Dec 2014 1:31 p.m. PST |
I do not understand how someone, who clearly is an authority, can say "my interest for 1815 is only superficial,"………..This is an oxymoron. It is not possible I do accept that there were earlier minor skirmishes, before Waterloo (such as Ligny, Charleroi and QB). I recall there was some conflict before 1815 even…….I joke! The title of this book suggests sales+++ immediately……. If in English, as we across La Manche are all so embarrassingly bad at anything beyond local speak. Juhel. Bless him. Never heard of him or his work. What a marvellous title. What he means is that the G a Chev did not wear the short coatee of the Royal Regt intended. That would have had a belt all the way around the waist, outside the jacket. That was the idea, but seems unlikely. Perrys got it right. The surtout instead. Slightly higher cut in front, to show a waiscoat, short, but not as short, tails, but especially, sword belt inside the coat. Does Juhel give any idea about Dragoons though? I am sure they wore the older, longer tailed, coat with white lapels at Waterloo, not the green surtout. But who really knows??? |
wargame insomniac | 15 Dec 2014 1:40 p.m. PST |
My personal Napoleonic education continues apace. As well as asking specific questions on here, I'm also trying to read up around the subject of Waterloo from the books that have been recommended. Half way through Chandler and awaiting delivery of Adkin. Plus tagged a couple of others for when they come back in stock. |
deadhead | 15 Dec 2014 1:51 p.m. PST |
You do not have a copy of Adkin? Enjoy……… It is not for reading, mind you. It is for sitting in the "bathroom" as our colonial cousins term the bog. You dip into it for pleasure (I do mean the book, of course). The maps….. I have one copy that has lost its spine and is disintegrating, which I take to the field every year or two. The other is in the "guest bathroom"…I have known my brother emerge after a half an hour, not due to constipation, but enthusiasm for some minor facet. There is a rumour here of errors, but I tried that topic once and was not impressed by the responses. Units may be a few yards too far east or west but………. |
wargame insomniac | 15 Dec 2014 3:17 p.m. PST |
Thanks Deadhead. Still on lookout for Andrew Field A French Perspective and Henry Lachouque Anatomy of Glory. Hopefully will be back in stock come payday. Some good New Years reading! |
von Winterfeldt | 15 Dec 2014 3:31 p.m. PST |
Just re read the thread in another forum we had 5 years ago about the GaC 1815 – seemingly they had the usual coat with white lapels, Juhel covers the whole Guard, also the Elite Gendarmes – interesting N did not like their new helmet! For all those enthusiast about the French Guard in 1815 – the book by Juhel seems to be a must have – seemingly completly ignored so far. Lachouque, Chandler and the rest, which brings nothing other than myths on the ohter hand – is in high vogue |
deadhead | 15 Dec 2014 3:35 p.m. PST |
French Perspective far better than I had expected. Honestly, I have not been disappointed by a single book on Waterloo this year (and I include Cornwell)…….. I have avoided one or two, but even then, I did flick through "The Secret" and may yet give in reluctantly. If you think the role of the Lights, in beating a hopeless attack at the end of The Day is a secret, this may yet surprise you. Must admit it seems well written though. The idea that a few hundred in LHS won the battle is "A Book Too Far" for me however. Anatomy of Glory I gave to our local charity book shop (Together with his Waterloo) decades ago, but then bought it again second hand last year in York. It is very, very, dated. I love it, but would not rely on its historical accuracy. |
Widowson | 15 Dec 2014 6:13 p.m. PST |
I'm pretty sure that on a much earlier thread, someone found actual requisition records that prove that both the Grenadiers a Cheval and the Gd. Dragoons were wearing the habit veste (long tails, white lapels) in the 100 Days Campaign. The cent jours site corrected their uniform plates accordingly. And one note on Gd. infantry – four companies per battalion, whatever the strengths. |
von Winterfeldt | 16 Dec 2014 12:10 a.m. PST |
I agree – amongst an endless row of dross – excellent publications did appear within the last few years by authors as Franklin, Glover, Mulwijk, Coppens, Juhel, so go for those authors |
xxxxxxx | 16 Dec 2014 12:29 a.m. PST |
I agree, as usual, with von Winterfeldt. But the Adkins is nice enough as baseline for more careful study, and is in English. - Sasha |
wargame insomniac | 16 Dec 2014 1:32 p.m. PST |
@Deadhead – Picked up The Waterloo Companion from post office today. That was £29.00 GBP well spent!! I can see what you mean about dipping in and out of it – will be much browsing oer Christmas holidays. @Widowson – yes I know that 4 oompanies for the Guard Infantry Battalions. That's why I asked about basing idea in my original post. As I said I like 28mm Line Infantry being based on 6 Company bases each with 6 figures on 45mm*40mm base. -If I went for 24 strong Guard Infantry Battalion units I could base on 4 bases of 6 figures on 45mm*40mm base. -If I went for 32 strong Guard Infantry Battalion units I could base on 4 bases of 8 figures on 60mm*40mm base. @von Winterfeldt / Alexandre – Juhel's "De l'Ile d'Elbe a Waterloo, la Garde Imperiale en 1815" is in French and costs £196.00 GBP Both reasons rule it for me. If you can suggest anything on the Imperial Guard in 1815 in English that would be much appreciated. Thanks James |
von Winterfeldt | 16 Dec 2014 1:45 p.m. PST |
You can get it for 90 euro at chapitre link There is no substitute for this book for the 1815 uniforms |
wargame insomniac | 16 Dec 2014 3:50 p.m. PST |
Thanks – that does work out a lot cheaper. But you seem to be missing the fact that I have said several times that my French would not be up to reading the technical nature of this book. Au revoir James |
von Winterfeldt | 17 Dec 2014 5:54 a.m. PST |
Good English books on that subject – very difficult to find, for 1815 there are none – otherwise try to get Head : Foot Regiments of the Imperial Guard, Almark Publications otherwise just have a go at Juhel, give it a try and I am quite positive that you will cope with a dictionary and self confidence |
wargame insomniac | 17 Dec 2014 8:14 a.m. PST |
Thanks von Winterfeldt. Amazon had a copy of Head : Foot Regiments of the Imperial Guard in stock so have ordered it to add to my New Year's reading. Thanks James |
xxxxxxx | 17 Dec 2014 9:04 a.m. PST |
James, I had an unfair advantage growing up in a French/English bilingual household. I did not even realize that there were two "separate" languages until I went to kindergarten. But, really, written French is not too much more than written English with strange spelling. The materials you might read in French, like the Coppens and the Juhel, are not exactly poetic literature and they are covering a topic which you already know a lot about. As Hans-Karl writes, I am also "quite positive that you will cope with a dictionary and self confidence". And it will really kick up your historical wargaming to the next level. Amicalement, - Sasha P.S. An ending "-ment" is the standard French adverbial ending, just like "-ly" in English. You will see "amicale-" as close to "amicable" or "amiable" in English and immediately get the equation of "ami" in both languages indicating friend or friendship. Some more examples ….. infanterie cavalerie artillerie génie (English engineer) sapeur (English sapper) pionnier garnison (English garrison) garde (English guard) soldat (English soldier) caporal sergent lieutenant capitan major colonel général maréchal (English marshal) section peloton (English platoon) escadron (English squadron) compagnie batalion régiment brigade division corps armée hussard dragon cuirassier grenadier carabinier ligne (line) légère (light …. OK, that one is not so easy, "léger" is from Latin and "light' is a Germanic word, like modern German "leichte") chasseur (literally "hunter" …. compare English "chaser", someone who chases, as a hunter chases after game) cheval (horse …. also not easy) pied (foot …. think "biped" or "millipede" in English, the "ped"/"pied" is a common Latin origin) canon pièce (like English – artillery piece) obusier (English howitzer …. maybe not as close as it might be) See, you can read French. :-) |
wargame insomniac | 17 Dec 2014 12:39 p.m. PST |
Well I didn't know the French words for engineer or howitzer before today. Thanks Sasha!! The rest I did know- I guess Napoleonic osmosis does work. Let me start with Head and Lachocque and go on from there. |
deadhead | 17 Dec 2014 12:49 p.m. PST |
You thought you rubbed a lamp for a genie? You thought dragons only appeared in that interminable series, that just features non stop gratuitous nudity (how I love it). Great list. Pleased to say that Obusier was the only one that lost me! Now, a Fantassin, that must be a guy who spends his time on PS4 pretending to have a life? A Marechal de Logis, he collects firewood? Alexandre, you are like the sniper in SPR…"This guy has talent" quoth Jackson. Wish I had your language skills |
xxxxxxx | 17 Dec 2014 1:14 p.m. PST |
More specifically …. génie is the arm of service : corps du génie = engineer corps ingénieur is the person, the technical professional But once you have one of the French words associated with the English word, and the English word is rather similar, you could make out the other by context. Just remember …. at first you are reading for data or information, not artistic or literary enjoyment. So this "French" stuff is more or less just strange English spelling. :-) - Sasha P.S. Deadhead, I think I only qualified at the pistol range because the Senior Chief monitoring the qualification wanted to leave and go out on a date. No sniper am I. But thanks for the kind words. |
Mserafin | 17 Dec 2014 2:02 p.m. PST |
The similarity of French and English words makes sense because 2/3 of words in English come from French, thanks to William the Conqueror and his buddies. |
von Winterfeldt | 18 Dec 2014 1:07 a.m. PST |
I am surprised on this – there I clearly see a lot of German words, more than French Glas = glas Mutter = mother Vater = father Bruder = brother Haus = house Nase = nose Ohr = ear Marsch = march Gras = gras Erde = earth Grund = ground Schild = shield Lippe = lip Ochse = ox Bier = beer Wasser = water Wort = word and so on |
Marc the plastics fan | 18 Dec 2014 4:53 a.m. PST |
Nope – lots of French based words, and generally easier for an English person to make sense of French/Latin based languages. We often have two words, one Anglo, one French for similar things – lamb/mutton, cow/beef, especially where food is concerned. Mind you, bar is generally bar in most of Europe, so easy enough to get a beer (or bier). |
xxxxxxx | 18 Dec 2014 7:16 a.m. PST |
"We often have two words, one Anglo[-Saxon], one French" Yes. As I understand it …. The most commonly used English words tend to be from Anglo-Saxon – so that if you record an English-speaker, the majority of the words will be Germanic. In the other hand, if you look through all sorts of written English for the "up-scale" or more specialized vocabularies of (as examples) science, government, literature, business, etc. – then the majority of English words will be of French (typically from Latin) origin. So that the native anglophone actually speaks a sort of horridly mangled German and reads a sort of horridly mangled French. Hence my prior comment : just think of French as English with really bad spelling. In either case, the native anglophone should have high confidence trying to learn a little French or a little German, especially if the learning is focussed on a specific topic with which the anglophone already has familiarity. The native anglophone starts either effort with a substantial advantage over, for example, a francophone trying to learn German. Of course, the native anglophone does not need this so much for personal, live communication. In this case, one can just speak slowly and loudly in English. The local people may not understand, but they will be so annoyed that they will try to do what you want so that you will shut up and go away. :-) - Sasha P.S. – dollar or euro is generally dollar or euro in most of the world, so easy enough to get a beer |
Musketier | 18 Dec 2014 8:33 a.m. PST |
"We often have two words, one Anglo, one French for similar things – lamb/mutton, cow/beef, especially where food is concerned." That's because the peasants herding the animals were Anglo-Saxons, while the lords eating the food – and probbaly their trusted cooks – were Normans. Go on insomniac, if your name is in any way true you can crack French, well enough to profit from books on your special subject. |
von Winterfeldt | 18 Dec 2014 8:56 a.m. PST |
"We often have two words, one Anglo, one French for similar things – lamb/mutton, cow/beef," Hm – Anglo, what is that – Latin? in your case I say Saxon or German Lamm = lamb Kuh = cow It would be even more evident when pronouncing the Wörter ;-)) Just to add Englisch – english and – now that's impressive England = England ;-)) |
John Miller | 18 Dec 2014 4:57 p.m. PST |
wargame insomniac: I had no previous knowledge of French and have been buying books on the Napoleonic Wars in the French language for about twenty years. With a dictionary at my side I am able to get through them. Not being the brightest bubble light on the Christmas tree detered me at first but patience has paid off. There is great stuff out there in French that I have been unable to find in English. Be prepared however, for high prices. Good luck! John Miller |
von Winterfeldt | 19 Dec 2014 4:39 a.m. PST |
I support John Miller's view. In case one is looking for a good alternative to at least Guard infantry of 1815 – go for Coppens, Bernard : Les Armées de Waterloo 1815 – Réédition Revue et Augmenté Editions de la Belle Alliance Bruxelles 1999
In French – yes, but each unit in colour A4 multiple illustrations and also back views either on the colour plate itself or in the text Brunswick, Dutch Belgian, French, British, Nassau, Prussians A slim volume packed with excellent information It shouldn't be that expensive and should provide a good investment for testing a book in French – lovely uniform plates in colour backed up by great text |