"Grand Fleet OOB Dec. 1914?" Topic

Jellico wanted to send out the whole Grand Fleet in response to the upcoming Scarborough raid. The Harwich flotilla should have been dispatched also. Churchill, with his usual flair for making the wrong decision, sent only one squadron in addition to Beatty's under strength Battle cruiser force.

The British got lucky. Luftus Jones, who's torpedo attack at Jutland is credited with diverting Hipper from spotting the Grand fleet's change to battle formation, was the hero of the day here. Seven destroyers scared off the German battle fleet.

Years ago, when I had more resources, I tried figuring out what the Grand fleet had available. I know what ships were commissioned, and when, but a number were out with condenser problems and refitting. Castles of Steel says one per squadron. Which probably explains Thunderer missing from the Second BS.

Also, a number of ships on both sides had not been fully "worked up". I know the Erin and Agincourt were present, but Jellico considered them not ready. A number of German ships were in the same boat. Between mines in the Baltic, and submarines and possible British sweeps in Heligoland Bight, the many newer German ships hadn't had proper trials at thus point. I know the Grosser Kurfurst hadn't worked up, and I think at least a couple of the Kaisers

I was able to come up with about 17-18 British dreadnoughts vs. 14 German. Would have been a close run thing. British had an advantage in cruisers, but as Jutland showed, the cruisers weren't always as good at reporting as they could have been.

Sounds like an interesting scenario. I could dig up OOB for the start of the war, but december 1914 sounds like a tough puzzle game…

Phil Dunn used this as a scenario for the megagame at Mortimer that kicked off the "Battleship Club" in the 1990s (the BC then merged with the NWS). I think the scenario was also published in Miniature Wargames, along with a full OOB

I like the Scarborough raid scenario. I collected all the ships to play it earlier this year, and started playing it as a 2-part scenario (BS action first day, BB action second day). I was foiled (twice!)by illness, but I'll try again in the next few months.

This OOB on the NavWeaps site lists 14 German dreadnoughts in the HSF fleet during the Scarborough raid, which concurs with your research.

Using this PDF of Jellico's book The Grand Fleet, 1914-1916 I count 18 ships in the GF at the time of the raid. The vague Nov 30 OOB (mostly numbers, not names) on page 168 lists 19 dreadnoughts (7+7+5), but says KGV was away for refit. In the text that follows, he says KGV returned from refit but Thunderer left for refit because of the same problem, so the 2nd BS still had only 6 dreadnoughts during the raid. That makes 7+6+5=18 dreadnoughts.

The NavWeaps OOB also lists 8x pre-dreadnoughts in the HSF 2nd BS (5x Deutschland class and 3x Braunschweig class). I chose to include them in my scenario, because though we armchair admirals know in hindsight that a pre-dreadnought squadron would be a weak spot in the line, the Germans considered them to be line-of-battle ships until Jutland proved otherwise. This gives the HSF a loooooooong battle line (22 BBs!) in a "what if" fight with the GF in December 1914, but against an inferior number of British dreadnoughts those pre-dreadnoughts might actually be more benefit than liability – especially if the HSF engages just one isolated GF squadron, as almost happened in real life.

Starting with the NavWeaps OOB, I would add these GF dreadnoughts into the game:

• 1st BS
  HMS Marlborough
  HMS Collingwood
  HMS Colossus
  HMS Hercules
  HMS St. Vincent
  HMS Superb
  HMS Vanguard

• 4th BS
  HMS Agincourt
  HMS Bellerophon
  HMS Dreadnought
  HMS Temeraire
  HMS Erin
  

In his text, Jellico says Benbow and Emperor of India joined the 4th BS at Scapa Flow in early December, but were still working up (and fitting out!), so probably did not sortie on Dec 17th.

Next time I try this scenario I'll do it as a 3-stage game:

1. battlecruisers stumble into each other
   
2. GF 2nd BS and entire HSF arrive on opposite ends of the BC action
   
3. GF 1st BS and 4th BS arrive together

That is stretching the time line quite a bit (the 1st and 4th BS had no chance to get into action with the HSF if the 2nd BS stumbled into contact), but should make for a very tense and interesting see-saw fight. If that still isn't an even fight, I can either throw in the Benbow and Emperor of India, or add in the 3rd BS so the GF has its own pre-dreadnoughts (which I don't even own, so I'd have to acquire and paint them first….).

I've done zero research on the DDs and cruisers which should accompany the GF, but I doubt anyone would notice if I just threw out some likely suspects. :-)

- Ix

Grand Fleet cruiser and destroyer forces as of January 1915 -

Individually attached ships -
Bellona, Blanche, Blonde, Boadicea, Sapphire, Sappho, Oak.

1st Cruiser Sqdn -
Leviathan, Black Prince, Duke of Edinburgh, Warrior.

2nd Cruiser Sqdn -
Shannon, Achilles, Cochrane, Natal.

3rd Cruiser Sqdn -
Antrim, Argyll, Devonshire, Roxburgh.

6th Cruiser Sqdn -
Drake, Cumberland, Donegal, Hampshire.

Destroyer Command (at Chatham) -
Arethusa, Aurora.

1st Light Cruiser Sqdn -
Southampton, Birmingham, Lowestoft, Nottingham.

2nd Light Cruiser Sqdn -
Falmouth, Gloucester, Liverpool, Yarmouth, Dartmouth (det).

Aircraft Carriers (at Dartmouth) -
Empress, Engadine, Riviera.

Minesweepers -
8 TGBs, 8 hired vessels.

1st Destroyer Flotilla -
Fearless, Meteor, 20x I Class.

2nd Destroyer Flotilla -
Active, Galatea, Broke, 21x H Class.

3rd Destroyer Flotilla (Harwich) -
30x L and M Classes.

4th Destroyer Flotilla -
Caroline, Faulknor, Swift, 22x K Class.

B

Thank you folks!!! I plan on running it with the Grand fleet intact, as Jellico intended. There was also the 3rd Battle Squadron, consisting of the King Edwards, which was still part of the Grand Fleet. When the rest of the Grand Fleet was dispatched in the afternoon, the 3rd joined up with Jellico. So they will join the battle line.

Thank you especially, Yellow Admiral and Blutarski. I believe the Iron Duke was also present. Brings the British to 19 dreadnoughts, 4 battle cruisers vs. 14 battleships, 5 battle cruisers, with 8 predreadnoughts apiece. Again, the British with a big edge in cruisers.

The British should have located Von Ingenhol rather quickly. Then, it's a matter of bringing him to battle, with the weather eventually closing in. Wonder if von Ingenhol was a better tactician than Scheer.

Brings the British to 19 dreadnoughts, 4 battle cruisers vs. 14 battleships, 5 battle cruisers, with 8 predreadnoughts apiece.

That's going to be a huge battle. What scale? What rules?

Be sure to get pictures!

The British should have located Von Ingenhol rather quickly. Then, it's a matter of bringing him to battle, with the weather eventually closing in.

The way things were developing, a full-scale encounter between GF and HSF couldn't have happened until 17 Dec. Jellico didn't have the GF assembled until the morning of 17 Dec, and his rendezvous point was half a day's steaming from the south end of Dogger Bank where the HSF had been on 16 Dec.

One of the reasons I settled on a piecemeal narrative is because it's the way a real historical fleet action would have developed. Since von Ingenohl had strict orders not to risk the Risk Flotte, he was going to avoid a general action with the GF at any cost. That's what he thought he was doing when he abandoned his own BCs and retreated to the Jade on Dec 16. Realistically, the only way to get him into battle with the GF is to draw him in, one advantageous encounter at a time, until he's committed and it's too late to get away.

Wonder if von Ingenhol was a better tactician than Scheer.

You'll have to tell us. :-)

- Ix

There is an article on this in the #284 Issue of Strategy and Tactics.

I was planning on running a convention game based on the information in it. lot closer than you guys are thinking here.

Does it include a full OOB?

- Ix

Of the major ships yup. I will post them in a bit

Hello, Yellow Admiral. My scenario posits that Churchill approved Jellico's intention to send the whole fleet, instead of one squadron. They would have arrived about the same time Warrender and Beatty did in real life.

With the battle cruisers leading, von Ingenhol might have been drawn north toward the fleet, as Scheer was. von Ingenhol, however, was more cautious than Scheer. That much I know. Perhaps a morale roll to see what he does.

I plan on doing this in 1/6000 scale, playing solo. Since space and funding is limited. I have both Naval Thunder Clash of the Dreadnoughts and General Quarters Fleet Action Imminent. Leaning towards Naval Thunder as faster play, but the rules are rather Spartan on certain important points, such as visibility.

Actually fought the real life situation years ago. Warrender and Beatty against the HSF using GQII. Germans turned and ran, but Pakenham's 3d cruiser squadron popped out of a fog bank at close range to the predreadnoughts.

Interestingly, two German ships suffered major fires, with one more slightly damaged, and only one British cruiser slightly damaged before Pakenham wisely ducked back into the fog bank, ending the battle. Used Panzerschiff models, long since gone missing.

Might be a while before I get around to this. Has been a year of hard luck for my family. Some still ongoing. Plan on ordering at least some of the ships next week. Could always do it with counters. Can get those for free. Have to think about pictures. My gaming location isn't that photogenic (table in kitchen). Special effects will be pretty spartan.

My scenario posits that Churchill approved Jellico's intention to send the whole fleet, instead of one squadron. They would have arrived about the same time Warrender and Beatty did in real life.

Oh, I get it. Yes, that makes sense.

I bet the GF would still have arrived slightly later than the 2nd BS and BF did in real life (hours, not days). Keeping 19 ships in company is harder (ergo slower) than keeping 6 together, especially in heavy weather. If you're including the 3rd BS, the Wobbly Eight also cruised notably slower than the dreadnoughts (triple expansion engines…) and increase the fleet size to 27 ships. The GF might have to steam straight toward the Jade and try to cut off the HSF's escape route in order to force a battle.

Leaning towards Naval Thunder as faster play, but the rules are rather Spartan on certain important points, such as visibility.

Agreed. Naval Thunder looks simpler because it leaves out rules for everything that the GQ3 system covers. The core rules of GQ3/FAI are about the same number of pages/words as NT, but then the GQ3/FAI books go on (and on, and on…) with rules for nearly every imaginable naval combat situation. You can ignore most of the rule book most of the time, but if you ever do need to know how sweep mines, fight with shore batteries, or drop bombs from a zeppelin, just look it up. I like that a lot.

As written, NT is faster to play than FAI/GQ3. However, with a few adjustments, I find GQ3 moves at the same pace, and has a "feel" of greater detail while doing so. I replace pre-plotted movement with Igo/Ugo (alternating initiative each turn), I use the simplified "fleet" torpedo rules, I print an abbreviated turn sequence containing just the parts in use, and I also made measuring sticks graduated in 1000s of yards (thin dowels with 2" bands of alternating wood stain colors) so players spend less time translating between yd and in/cm (counting is easier than arithmetic). These are all little things that add up to big time savings, and new players catch on faster too. I would also note that the GQ3/FAI ship rosters are much smaller and contain more detail than NT rosters.

Having said all that – the old GQ2 system is probably a better bet for a battle this size. You're going to have a lot of ships on the table at one time.

You might also consider adapting the GWAS tactical system to miniatures – it's a really fast play system and does an okay job for the period.

I plan on doing this in 1/6000 scale, playing solo.

Too bad you're not on the West Coast. We could start playing in January. :-)

- Ix

Comments on the British OOB:

Predreadnoughts:

You might consider leaving Commonwealth out of the 3rd BS OOB for this mid-December operation. That ship was refitting at the end of 1914.

Armored Cruisers:

1st CS was not really complete. Defense was not available yet, and Black Prince was refitting. Leviathan was temporary flag. I'd suggest borrowing Drake from the 6th CS to make a 4 ship squadron for this scenario. (King Alfred had been sent to West Africa in September 1914, and then joined 9th CS.)

Drake, Donegal, Cumberland, Leviathan and Hampshire didn't actually join up to reform the 6th CS until January 1915 (at least according to Conways and the OOB on World War One, the Maritime War), so I'd suggest leaving 6th CS out of this scenario.

2nd CS should be complete, however.

Light Cruisers:

1st LCS in the mid-December operation consisted of Southhampton, Birmingham, Falmouth (from 2nd LCS), and Nottingham. Not sure what was up with Lowestoft.

I would suggest not using 2nd LCS at all. Yarmouth only arrived from overseas duty (hunt for Emden, etc.) in December 1914, so probably was not ready for North Sea action yet in mid-December. Gloucester was detained off West Africa to look for the German AMC Kronprinz Wilhelm, and didn't arrive for service with the Grand Fleet until February 1915. And Liverpool was refitting in November and December 1914 due to condenser trouble.

Boadicea and Blanche were pretty badly smashed up by the heavy seas at the start of the sweep on December 15, and had to turn back for repairs. It's anybody's guess whether Blonde and Bellona could have made it out to sea safely under those conditions. You might want to dice for them. Sapphire and Sappho would not have gone to sea.

Arethusa, Aurora, and Undaunted (3rd DF) were already serving with the Harwich force, along with Fearless (1st DF). Active was with 2nd DF at Scapa Flow. Galatea was available with either the 2nd DF or the Harwich force sometime in December (pick source), so you might want to dice for availablility and readiness, unless some source gives a more specific date. Likewise Caroline became available with 4th DF at Scapa Flow sometime in December, so you might want to dice for that one too. Caroline, Galatea (if at Scapa Flow), and Active might have had as hard a time fighting the heavy seas on December 15 as Boadicea and Blanche did.

Basically, the number of British light cruisers available in mid-December 1914 would be a bit less than in January and February 1915.

Destroyers:

Jellicoe gives the number of destroyers available at the end of 1914 in 2nd DF (H class) as 16, with another 4 refitting, and the number in 4th DF (K class) as 17, with another 3 refitting. That seems to be a reasonable number to hold out from each flotilla as being in repair or refit mode. Swift (4th DF) was also supposed to be undergoing refit in December 1914. Broke did participate with 2nd DF in the operation, being damaged in a collision with Bellona (also damaged) on December 16/17. Faulknor was probably available with 4th DF.

Not sure how many of the Harwich force destroyers were available.

Good Luck!

Director Fire Control:

If you use Fleet Action Imminent, you might consider which ships would have had director fire control installed and operational for main armament (not secondaries), with crews trained, by the time of this scenario.

From a list of installations that I got from Ed Beauregard in Vancouver, BC, the British BBs with director fire control by December 1914 (and I don't know what sources he used) would include (10):
Iron Duke
Marlborough
Collingwood
St. Vincent
Vanguard
Colossus
Thunderer
Ajax
Centurion
King George V

My own list of British BBs with available director fire control installed and with trained crews for main batteries by December 1914 (from probably more lame secondary or tertiary sources) would include (8 or 9):
Iron Duke
Marlborough
King George V
Ajax
Centurion
Monarch
Thunderer
Neptune (possibly older model)
(maybe Conqueror, but perhaps not until May 1915)

I feel somewhat doubtful whether the German predreadnoughts and Roon should be rated as having director fire control, as FAI rates them. But who really knows?

If you use Fleet Action Imminent, you might consider which ships would have had director fire control installed and operational for main armament (not secondaries), with crews trained, by the time of this scenario.

That's an excellent point (and some nice bit of research there).

I feel somewhat doubtful whether the German predreadnoughts and Roon should be rated as having director fire control, as FAI rates them. But who really knows?

That does seem dubious, but some possible reasons why:

• The FAI ratings for the HSF and Grand Fleet may be for the 1916 time frame
  
• The Germans were more thorough and systematic about rolling out changes once they committed to them, so would have put their fire-control system into any ship that needed to operate as a fleet unit with the HSF
  
• The Germans refused to think of their last 10 pre-dreadnoughts as totally obsolete until after Jutland, and worked to keep them up to spec with the rest of the HSF
  
• The German WWI naval fire control system was less complex than the British system, so may also have been faster to implement
  
• Maybe the Roon was used for experimentation with gunnery control…?
  

These are only best guesses based on past reading. I have no proof whatsoever for any of these.

- Ix

Yellow Admiral, FAI rates German armored cruisers Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, Roon, and Yorck as having "DCT" (director fire control, or it's equivalent), but not the slightly older armored cruisers Prinz Adalbert, Friedrich Carl, and Prinz Heinrich. Most of those were lost by the time of Jutland. So it seems like an FAI estimation of the quality of fire control at the outset of the war. Not sure what was on the designers minds.

It's interesting that two German battleships of the Nassau class didn't have all of the director equipment available at the time of Jutland, specifically the "director pointer" installed in the turrets. That probably didn't have too much effect, since the pointer may have just been a convenience. But I still wonder if all of the German ships had the same equipment and training.

For the British, I think the dreadnought line was far more lethal at the time of Jutland, due to director fire control in all but two dreadnoughts, than it was in 1914 and early 1915 when so many dreadnoughts lacked that equipment.

CampyF, are you considering using historical weather? If so, are you considering leaving 2nd DF and 4th DF at Scapa Flow with the lighter British cruisers until the weather improves? Would be interesting to see the dreadnoughts of the Grand Fleet steaming south escorted by only a dozen armored cruisers and the 7 K class destroyers from Cromarty.

Then again, historical weather conditions even in the southern part of the North Sea might make it hard for the light German TBDs to launch any effective torpedo attack.