Whirlwind | 09 Dec 2014 10:24 a.m. PST |
For all of those of you that have set up famous battles that have particularly famous buildings in them – I'm mainly thinking of the "100 Days" battles, but Aspern-Essling would be a good candidate too – how did you get around the problem of the model building being completely out of scale with the ground? |
Saber6 | 09 Dec 2014 10:47 a.m. PST |
I have a base that is the correct ground size (town footprint) and then use buildings to fill the base. The other option is to use smaller scale buildings (say 1/300 with 15mm) |
forwardmarchstudios | 09 Dec 2014 11:03 a.m. PST |
A true ground scale Aspern and Essling in 3mm is quite possible, and would probably be one of the most epic convention games ever. I'm working on it… slowly… |
MajorB | 09 Dec 2014 11:11 a.m. PST |
how did you get around the problem of the model building being completely out of scale with the ground? Use a smaller scale building. Buildings really need to be closer to the ground scale than the figure scale. |
WarWizard | 09 Dec 2014 11:18 a.m. PST |
I accept that buildings will not be to scale. I use "poetic" license to scale back as necessary. I think once you accept this as a wargamer, it opens up more opportunities. |
Whirlwind | 09 Dec 2014 11:36 a.m. PST |
Just one point to perhaps guide the responses, I am specifically referring to those instances when the building is a famous part of the battle. So (unless I've missed something) Talavera I just represent by random Spanish buildings to occupy the necessary space. But for Waterloo, do you use a generic "Western European farm" to represent Hougoumont and a barn for La Haye Sainte, for example. |
matthewgreen | 09 Dec 2014 11:50 a.m. PST |
I'm slowly getting used to 6mm buildings to go with my 15mm figures. An lots of 6mm buildings are too big to use! It really is the only way. Even then one building often represents a group. Generally if you are using smaller figures (6mm say) then the discrepancy is smaller. Bruce Weigle in his wonderful 1866 -1870 games uses 4mm buildings with his true 6mm figures – and it looks terrific. Such a shame not to be able to use lovely larger scale buildings unless using a skirmish game distance scales. But they look even sillier than the size discrepancy with figures. |
MajorB | 09 Dec 2014 11:52 a.m. PST |
But for Waterloo, do you use a generic "Western European farm" to represent Hougoumont and a barn for La Haye Sainte, for example. If I've got a specific model in a suitable scale then I'd use it. Otherwise I would either fudge it with generic buildings or build a model specially. I recently made a model of the Chew House for Germantown (American Revolution, but the principle is the same). Also depends whether the game is for "private consumption" or to be displayed at a show. In the latter case obviously a model of the actual building would be more appropriate. |
Beeker | 09 Dec 2014 12:19 p.m. PST |
I agree with those who have suggested scaling down buildings and terrain in general compared to the figure size. I tend toward 3mm buildings and terrain for 6mm figs. Cheers! Beeker |
45thdiv | 09 Dec 2014 12:23 p.m. PST |
I scale down the battle. Just do a part of the battle. OK not a exciting but it can work. I have 28mm figures so I have to make it work. |
Whirlwind | 09 Dec 2014 12:32 p.m. PST |
@ Major B: So if you were running such a game at a show, how would you then deal with the increased footprint involved in using the model of the actual building(s)? |
Ligniere | 09 Dec 2014 2:10 p.m. PST |
For a display/convention event, my approach would be to have a small representative building structure at the correct tabletop ground scale actually on the table, and then, separately, off table have a more accurate model of the structure that's being merely represented on the tabletop. The players than have a visual of what's being attacked, whilst realistically only fighting over the ground occupied by the building[s] historically. The worse case is when the tabletop model allows players to charge [or occupy] a structure with many times the actual number of units that historically happened. When your model is too big this is bound to happen on the tabletop. |
MajorB | 09 Dec 2014 3:46 p.m. PST |
@ Major B: So if you were running such a game at a show, how would you then deal with the increased footprint involved in using the model of the actual building(s)? I wouldn't. I actually said "If I've got a specific model in a suitable scale" – meaning a smaller scale than the figures. |
Whirlwind | 09 Dec 2014 6:30 p.m. PST |
Ah, sorry, I understand, thank you. |
Kevin in Albuquerque | 09 Dec 2014 7:19 p.m. PST |
I agree with Major B. It's the suitable ground scale that's the real key. I remember a game put on locally that the game master used a Hougomont 15mm scale set of paper buildings for 25mm. Worked like a charm. We thought it was just a model of something generic. Not good for my french buddy on that flank. Ouch. |
Glenn Pearce | 10 Dec 2014 7:10 a.m. PST |
Hello Whirlwind! Whenever possible I try and obtain the footprint of the building or complex. Not always easy to do, so often I just use a standard building that looks reasonably close to what I'm trying to represent. Most of my buildings are mounted on the same bases as my 6mm units, 60mm x 30mm although some are on 60mm x 60mm. Regardless we only allow one unit to occupy a building. So the footprint for both is roughly the same. When we play Waterloo Hougoumont will be represented by a single 6mm chateau looking building with a small garden and wood. That will allow us to capture the critical features of the area and limit the number of troops within. We never use smaller scale buildings as it just seems to look odd when you see cavalry peering over the roof tops. I played in a 25mm Waterloo game once where a number of buildings were used to represent Hougoumont. It did manage to present a major obstacle for the French, but for all the wrong reasons. The footprint was clearly out of scale for the game. In our games we often use a farm looking complex and call it a village or a small town. Large towns or cities are a cluster of buildings. Each is obviously smaller then an actual scale replication, but it works because it looks natural to the eye. So yes just use a single building in the proper scale to represent your famous buildings and consider the fact that some of the surrounding area is included. Which might be a few minor outbuildings or gardens etc. It's rare that a single building or small complex could hold more then one unit. Best regards, Glenn |
Auld Minis ter | 10 Dec 2014 10:46 a.m. PST |
I just produced Raevsky's Redoubt of Borodino with the same scale/sizing issues commentary in my blog post link keeping with my big base 28mm figure sizing. |
Whirlwind | 10 Dec 2014 10:58 a.m. PST |
Thanks to all for your very interesting and useful thoughts. I liked your talk through about the Raevsky redoubt, and as you say, just enough for the look of the thing is wise advice! |
spontoon | 10 Dec 2014 9:22 p.m. PST |
Let's see. If I use 25mm/28mm buildings, my table shrinks and the figs can't fire the length of a barn. If I use 15mm buildings the figs are 75 feet tall and can shoot over the barn. Is a puzzlement! |
MajorB | 11 Dec 2014 4:40 a.m. PST |
Let's see. If I use 25mm/28mm buildings, my table shrinks and the figs can't fire the length of a barn. If I use 15mm buildings the figs are 75 feet tall and can shoot over the barn. Is a puzzlement! All due to the fact that the figure scale and ground scale are wildly different! |
uglyfatbloke | 11 Dec 2014 9:08 a.m. PST |
We do the 'footprint covered with generic buildings' thing. It's not perfect, but then what is? It does n't stop us using site-specific buildings, they just have to represent a larger area, so my wife's model of Lee's HQ at Gettysburg represents the house, the garden and adjacent plots/out buildings etc….or, more truthfully, that's the excuse for getting it onto the table. |