"Bundeswehr Marder Squad Questions" Topic

I've been reading up on this again, since I want to field a "modern", Cold War, West German force, and need to know the number of troops, and what weapons they carried when dismounting.

Seeking info on the 1970s, primarily, but info on the early – mid 1980s, and 1950s and 1960s would be useful as well (yes, I know they didn't get the Marders until 1971, but could use info for M113 and truck-borne troop units too).

From a number of sources, which are sometime conflicting, I've found the following:

Marder (aka Marder 1) – 3 crew plus as many as 7 troops carried (some say 6).

Marder 1A1+ and/or 1A1- – 3 crew (some say 4 crew – seems like an error/typo, since there's no need as far as I can tell for a 4th vehicle crew member) plus 5 or 6 troops (5 troops, if 4 crew).

Marder 1A2 – 3 crew plus 5 troops.

Marder 1A3 and 1A5 – 3 crew plus 6 troops, again.

So, as you can imagine, I'm a bit confused.

Near as I can tell, the following is the actual quantity of men for the vehicles, but I'd like confirmation, if anyone can confirm/contradict the numbers, definitively, from Bundeswehr TO&Es, or other reliable sources (someone that served in the West German Army, etc.:

Marder (aka Marder 1) – 3 crew plus 6 troops, if vehicle doesn't have Milan launcher. Max. quantity of riders (7 passengers) not fielded? From 1977 – 1979, as the Milan launchers were added, the number of riders dropped to 5 troops (6?), due to the need to make room for the ammo for it, stored internally.

Marder 1A1+ and/or 1A1- – 3 crew plus 5 troops.

Marder 1A2 – 3 crew plus 5 troops.

Marder 1A3 and 1A5 – 3 crew plus 6 troops, again.

In terms of weapons carried, I've read the following:

1 x MG3

1 x Pistolgranate – short, grenade launcher weapon (not clear if this was a primary weapon, or a backup. Also, not clear if the individual carried another weapon too, e.g. pistol, Uzi, or G3 rifle?). I seem to recall mention this person was the squad leader, but am not 100% sure about that.

1 x G3 GS1 Sniper rifle

2 x Pzf-44 from the early 1960s – early 1990s (not clear if these troops used G3s instead, when the Pzf-44s weren't needed – I suspect so. Also, not clear if only one was usually fielded at a time by the squad/maneuver team, and if the second one was left in the vehicle as a backup, in case the first one was damaged, or if each "maneuver team" carried one. The latter makes sense, if under imminent attack by enemy tanks and IFVs/APCs).

So, the above is a full squad, assuming 5 dismount troops in it, and that the weapons carried above are accurate.

Presumably, if a 6th member is available, that person would carry a G3 rifle.

It's also not clear if any of the troops are designated to assist the MG3 gunner, by carrying extra ammo, etc., if needed.

Does this five – six man squad split further, when fighting, into fire teams, of two and three men, or do they usually fight together as a unit?

I've read that a true squad is as many as ten men, which might make sense, if/when you had four to five Marders in a platoon. However, now that there are three in a platoon, I'm having difficulty getting my head around such small numbers of dismounted troops in a squad/platoon, when not counting the crew that stay with their vehicles.

Any more info related to the above is appreciated.

I'm also interested in the TO&Es for the Platoon HQs, M-113s, and/or truck-borne/foot troop units (Jaegers, and Paras) as well, if anyone can shed light on those (supposedly 8 – 9 dismounts were carried in the tracks [10?]). Presumably, their organization would be similar to the above, but probably with more G3 rifles for the extra men.

I recall mention that the M-113s were allocated with Milan missiles (ground mounts), first, to beef up their strength, when they became available, but don't know that for sure. Makes sense, given their anemic combat power compared to the Marder IFVs, if true.

Thoughts, info, and/or links to good reference material on the above?

Dear Editor – please remove from the Medieval Board. Apparently, my mouse jumped when trying to post to the Modern Discussion Board. Sorry.

Can't answer all of your questions but from a friend of mine who is an active service German officer:

"Panzergrenadier zugs are currently as follows:

Command team:
Commander (MP7 or MP5 or G36)
Radio operator (MP7 or MP5 or G36)
MG3/HK121 gunner
Panzerfaust 3 operator with G36
2 G36 soldiers

3 x Gruppe:
Commander (G36)
MG3/HK121 gunner
Panzerfaust 3 operator with G36
3 G36 soldiers – one with AG36 (UGL)
3 Vehicle crew – usually stay with the vehicle.

Ok, that is the easy bit!


The Zug organisation for Jäger would be:

Command team:
Commander (MP7 or MP5 or G36)
NCO (MP7 or MP5 or G36)
2 Radio operators (MP7 or MP5 or G36)
2 Sharpshooters
2 man anti-tank team
2 Drivers

3 x Gruppe:
Commander (MP7 or MP5 or G36)
6 Jäger (G36)
2 sharpshooters
1 Driver

However, this depends on the vehicle in use and the Gruppe can vary between 8-11.

For the Boxer MRAV, the organisation of a gruppe is:

Commander (MP7 or MP5 or G36)
2iC (MP7 or MP5 or G36)
4 G36 soldiers – two with AG36 (UGL)
2 MG3/H121 Gunners
3 vehicle crew

This is divided into 2 equal fireteams (not including the vehicle crew)"

Careful weasel, thats the modern layout, not the Cold War version.

To my knowledge, a Panzergrenadier squad has 6 dismounts + 3 crew staying in the IFV.

Usual armament for the Cold War as you wrote: 1x MG3, 1x GraPi (40mm Grenade Launcher), at least 1 PzF44.

I´ll dig through the sources later, no time right now.

Greetings from Germany,
BG

Oops! Mis-posted to the Medieval Board I think!

There are a number of previous threads on this exact same topic, including replies by former 1980s-era panzergrenadiers. I'll try to find them for you, but essentially they say the same as BG above. I dunno about sub-section organisation, but as they only had 1x MG3 per section it would suggest a 'Gun Group'/'Manoeuvre Group' structure, rather than two equal fireteams.

Note that only one Marder per platoon would normally carry a Milan, though the ratios increased markedly and by the end of the 80s it was common for there to be 3x Milan per platoon (so essentially one on each vehicle). Note that the Milan was also dismountable.

A Marder Company under Heeresstruktur 4 (i.e. the 1980s org) had three platoons, each with 3x Marders. There was no Platoon Commander's mount, so he and his SNCO would each ride in one of the platoon's rifle section Marders. There were two Marders in the Company HQ – the 2nd Marder in the HQ was the company's 'Reserve Section', which was a 10th rifle section under the company commander's direct command, with a secondary reconnaissance role. So a total of 11x Marder per company.

In 'pure' Panzergrenadier Battalions there were two Marder Companies and one 'Jaeger' Company in M113G. There were 10x M113G in the company – Jaeger Companies did not have a Reserve Section. Some accounts suggest that the Jaeger Company was frequently used for recce.

There was also a Mortar Company with 8x Panzermoerser 120 (M113 120mm mortar carriers – virtually identical to M106) and a couple of 'Beobachtungspanzer' (OP vehicles created from de-gunned Jagdpanzers).

Mixed Panzergrenadier Battalions replaced the Jaeger Company with a Panzer Company.

Mixed Panzer Companies replaced one Panzer Company with a Panzergrenadier Company (Marder).

Here's one earlier thread:

TMP link

My bad, what I posted was from 95 onwards.

No problem Weasel. That TO&E will no doubt be useful to some as well.

Thanks for all the other replies. I appreciate them.

Thanks Jemima, I've seen that, with replies from Dom, IIRC, who was very helpful. The listings on-line, from various sources, and his seem to conflict, which is why I'm asking the questions.

I do see that the pistolgranate is quite small, so could be, and probably would be carried with a G3 rifle, as well.

Of course, all of the various listings for the Marder could be correct, since they've changed over time, as have many other things, e.g. going from the 16 x Marders to a company in the early 1970s (3 platoons of 5 each, +1 HQ vehicle), and then a bit later to 13 (3 platoons of 4, +1 HQ vehicle), and now to 11, apparently.

I also fondly remember the days when there were 17 Leopards, and/or other tanks to a company, too.

I did find a note for Heeresstruktur 2, mentioning 39 x Unimogs in a Grenadier Battalion, for the 12th Panzer Brigade (13 trucks per company x 3 Co.'s). Online sources seem to conflict over the number of Jaegers in a squad – most mention 11, or 12.

Anyone know how many troops a Unimog can/usually carry/carried?

I figure perhaps a crew of 2+10, but couldn't find that definitively, anywhere.

Danke schoen BG (sorry, no umlauts on my keyboard). I look forward to your reply.

P.S. Request is in for QRF to produce 15mm West German troops with the Carl Gustav too, for the heavy anti-tank weapon, for both the Bundeswehr, and Danish troops. Of course, if any of you mention an interest in that, it might speed things along.

Hey,

it´s certainly not an easy task to summarize the entire development of Panzergrenadier units throughout the Cold War – people have written entire books about this matter.

The most important points I think are:

Marder IFVs were in use from 1971 on, developed in the 60s as a replacement for the HS30 ( link )

The original Marder 1 had a passenger capacity of 7 men + 3 crew until the early 1970 when the vehicles were upgraded to Marder 1A1, which reduced capacity to 6.

I do not know if the initial squad was 7 man strong, but any group past 1979 is very likely to be 6 man strong due to the limits of the Marder 1A1.

The dismounts are always operating in conjunction with the vehicle, they will usually not split up unless they´re forming tank-hunting teams or somesuch.

The support weapons carried are in addition to the basic rifle ( G3 ) as primary weapon – with the exception of the MG obviously.

Hope that helps?

Cheers
BG

For the CG, I just clip the warhead off the PzF44! :)

Good tip!

Thanks.

I didn't realize they look that similar.

It's a tube over the shoulder… ;)