"European Court Orders France To Pay Compensation..." Topic

Capt Jimmi – I have, actually, praised the USA for its transparency, and contrasted that with the UK.

Note however that the UK government has also condemned torture, and by implication the CIA and we're asking for evidence as to how MI6 has been involved.

Currently there's a police investigation underway. I'd expect British thugs to be sent down as well, it's not just a US thing.

Plenty of people hate the USA for their own reasons, and for their view of US foreign policy. however it is undeniable that US double-dealing and double-standards are a major cause of radicalisation – every security talking head says so because such things are an open goal for ISIS and AQ to make propaganda from.

That the Unibomber gets a lawyer and an AQ bomber doesn't neatly points to the idea that the USA simply hates Muslims and has different rules for them.

As for the USA Shavian an ingrained sense of altruism… difficult to see from here to be honest… yes it is the largest foreign aid donor (in absolute terms) but it's actually average in relative terms. No worse than a lot of places but again, no shining example.

however, the USA is NOT to blame for Somalia and its fishing problem. The usual suspects for overfishing are the Chinese and Europeans, with the added joy of the Italian mafia dumping industrial waste in Somali waters.

The big problems with the Islamic World stem from the ham-fisted anti-terrorist efforts post 9/11. somalia has merely been swept up in that as radicalised fruitcakes take advantage of every weak government in the region>

Of all the problems in the region, Somalia is one you can't blame on the USA… except in as much as it had the chance to sort the country out and, under Clinton, blew it. But in the context of those, more peaceful, times I can understand why.

If anything I'd suggest the USA has an overly developed sense of altruism, because of the tenets of their own constitution (ingrained from birth), and they come from a society where they can see/aspire to something better than the corrupt shambles of many third world (and first world) governments. …Problems is ; you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped (USA has failed to accept this)…despite all the best and noble intentions.

This bears repeating. It exemplifies the best and worst aspects of America, and the reason I push so hard to hold us to higher standards.

"Everyone else is doing it" isn't an excuse we accept from our children; it shouldn't be acceptable from our government, military, corporations, and other leaders, either.

Howdy again Bangorstu !

may I offer ;

Yes the UK government has condemned torture , but there has been at least one incident of it happening…that we know of. (I'm thinking of a well publicised case in Iraq where at least one detainee died as a result of what could be most generously described as over-zealous interrogation, if not outright physical torture).

? US double-dealing and double standards ? …compared to whom ? …the governments of Iraq ? Afghanistan ? Pakistan ? Saudi Arabia ? Iran? Russia ? NATO ? …this might be a bit more in the eye of the beholder's perspective …wheras to a longtime observer it's just realpolitik …funded by taxpayers.
An obvious problem that America has is that it is a Democracy, so domestic opinion (and opinion-ation) also drives what the government thinks the domestic vote will tolerate , and this circus is open for negotiation every four years (in USA). Also ; USA policy is determined by committees… the least effective method in a quickly changing world …and likely results in such compromise that noone is happy with the (negotiated) decision. Especially in terms of getting a consistent foreign policy I'd agree with Winston Churchill when he said something like; "Democracy is the worst form of government …except for all the alternatives".

The USA underwrites more than 20% of the UN budget, ….always has. The USA underwrites most of NATO's budget,…always has. Have a look in real terms what the US contributes relative to pretty-well everyone else (except Japan)..it's embarrassing for everyone else.
And I'm just scratching the financial surface here.

The modern cycle of 'big problems with the Islamic world' started in 1948. In 1967 the USA lost it's moral high ground in the Islamic world by allowing Israel to weasel out of it's obligations under UN resolution 242 by debating points of language…and ignoring what it actually meant…all the way to today. For the last 47 years the Muslim world has felt that the UN does not represent their interests or sense of justice. There have been lots of examples since that would confirm/harden this opinion. But hey …you can't be the President of the USA without the Jewish vote. …fact.

lastly and most importantly …and often repeated misconception …the USA never had a chance to 'sort out' Somalia, no more than it had a chance to 'sort out' Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Liberia, Panama and so on. At best , the USA offered a chance for these places to sort themselves out … by trying to relieve a bad security situation and injecting a few million/billion dollars of taxpayer's cash. Problem is/was these countries didn't take the opportunity, and the rest is history.

Just as one of the Golden Rules is; "only pick fights you know you can win"
…I'd add; "only help folks who want to be helped"

The USA is indeed no worse, and in many cases better, than many other governments when it comes to double dealing.

The difference is the US claims higher standards…

Is the USA a democracy? Given its secret service appears to now regard democratic oversight as an optional etra, and only millionaires can get elected, the word oligarchy seems ever more appropriate.

In real terms the USA does a lot. In relative terms… not so much, unless we're talking military spending.

Whereas the fact that the US democracy is held prisoner by Israel (or seems to be) doesn't help, the rot set in before the illegal conquests of 1967. They began when the USA (and UK) installed the Shah in Iraq, ousting an inconvenient democratic government.

You're right in that Somalia can only be sorted out by Somalis – and to an extent that's now happening thank goodness. But a strong US military presence stabilising the place would have helped.

And, as it happens, the US retreat from somalia, coupled with US pussy-footing in the Balkans gave rise to the false impression that the US was casualty-shy.

It might not have been america's job to sort out somalia, but it would have gained all kinds of benefits had it tried – though hindsight is a wonderful thing!

Legion – actually the only people to have said the report is inaccurate is, so far as I can tell, the CIA who aren't exactly impartial.

No more terror attacks occurred… unless, of coruse, you count Bali, or 7/7, or Barcelona…

Oh, sorry. No Americans. They don't count.

But note, the Australians spanish and British don't torture either. And we've also only ha done large attack each.

Which rather proves you don't need to.

People like you are, I'm afraid, probably why large bits of the world hate America.

Because you think Americans have a God given right to do what the hell they want, to whom they want.

Fortunately your President doesn't, and hopefully that means some self-satisfied suits will end up behind bars – because if they don't, America has no claim to moral superiority.

God stu !!!! How many times have we been over such things. Yes many bad thing happen in the war on terrorism … but more from the terrorist, islamists, jadihists, etc. side. Their crimes pales vs. anything the US/West does. And when I said, there were no more 9/11s on US soil, that is why they went after softer targets. Which is very, very unfortunate. And I'm sure the US shares any intel with other friendly countries. And of course I agree with all capt jimmi said … And yes, what do you think is my fault stu ? And let me make this very clear … I HATE groups like AQ, ISIS, the Taliban, etc. … They are a threat to all who believe in freedom of religion and speech, women's rights, advocates slavery and rape, and believe it is OK to purposely target non-combatants, beheadings, etc.,etc. … I'm sure you saw the news today from Pakistan. Which adds to the atrocities, war crimes, human rights violates, etc., etc. that are islamic fanatics predilections and preferences. To stop this cancer on the world should be the #1 priority of the free non-islamists,/"infidel" peoples. So that is why large bits of the world hates Americans because of people like me ? I'm pretty such people like AQ, ISIS, etc. hate me and those like me … Because we want to stop them. And to do it we have to kill them all in large numbers. As you can't make a deal with islamic fanatics if you do not believe as they do. So because people like me realize that sometimes you have to do bad things to stop such groups. And yes play dirty on rare occasions, that still means whatever "moral" high ground we take may not suit your ideas of of certain things. However, short of Nucs, to fight islamists who do things like what happened in Pakistan today, which enrages me … I think again, sometimes you may have to fight fire with fire. And not try to let such groups actions get away with such acts. Do you ? I think you dislike me and many of my fellow Americans because we see the realities when dealing with groups like AQ, ISIS, et al. And they need to be "terminated with Extreme prejudice". And if people flock to such groups for what ever reasons, and there are many. They left their humanity behind and deserve to die … at the hands of people like me … Who are trained to kill to save people like your's butts … While you sit warm in a comfortable chair and spout out lofty idealistic rethoric, etc., etc. … Condemning the US, which is the cornerstone for the defense of the West against such mad men as AQ, ISIS, etc. … Will your rethoric, "ideals", etc., stop them ? Or guys like I used to be in my youth ?

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

George Orwell

People hate the US because of the double standards.

They invade countries to promote human rights, and then torture the inhabitants.

They claim to promote democracy, whilst undermining governments worldwide who annoy them. And supporting brutal regimes for decade sin a spirit of realpolitik.

Obviously the Taliban are brutal people who deserve to die. Trouble is, you don't seem too fussed about who dies.

Nor do you seem to have a problem when the USA acts as AQ does in torturing people.

Prisoners were tortured to death is CIA custody. you haven't condemned that,y et you'll legitimately) complain when ISIS executes a hostage.

The USA rounding up a bunch of goatherders and sticking them in G'mo is no different to ISIS rounding up Westerners and claiming them to be spies.

This is the fundamental point you fail to grasp.

If you're perceived as being no better than ISIS, how will you win hearts and minds?

You will never understand where people like me come from … But sleep well … sleep well … The UK has many men like I was … protecting your rights to say whatever you like. Bad things happen in wars … You don't understand that things in reality are not black and white on today's battlefields … You find it easiers to blame the US for many things that happen as opposed to the people that are the root of such evils … But I'm wasting my time again with you … But again, sleep well …

Legion – I get the impression you don't understand the end of 'A Few Good Men'….

Bad things indeed happen in wars. You seem incapable of understanding that there's a difference between being in the front line and being in a prison camp thousands of miles from any possible danger.

You seem not to care about the laws of the United States, and seem not to want people who disgraced your uniform by breaking those laws to be brought to justice.

Sooner or later 9/11 will happen again, and you'll not have the slightest clue why.

But note, the Australians spanish and British don't torture either. And we've also only ha done large attack each.

Which rather proves you don't need to.

More like, the Aussies, Spanish, and British haven't been caught torturing people.

Radical Muslims hate the US because the US is incredibly successful while doing all the things that their faith says is sinful. Their faith teaches that Allah will punish those who sin in this world, and yet the US appears to get no punishment.

This shakes the foundation of their faith, and people facing a crisis of faith tend to lash out.

Bangorstu
Legion – I get the impression you don't understand the end of 'A Few Good Men'….

Bad things indeed happen in wars. You seem incapable of understanding that there's a difference between being in the front line and being in a prison camp thousands of miles from any possible danger.

You seem not to care about the laws of the United States, and seem not to want people who disgraced your uniform by breaking those laws to be brought to justice.

Sooner or later 9/11 will happen again, and you'll not have the slightest clue why.

Don't talk down to me. And I understand better than you the ending of "A Few Good". And I understand the leadership failure there. And yes, we protect the weak … And as I said before, we were trained not to follow unlawful orders. I know better than you do, the Laws of the US and UCMJ. Those who disgraced my uniform were usually punished and a General was demoted over Abu Grabe. And unfortunately bad things happen at the Front and in POW camps many times. Mistakes are always made in war along with bad decisions at all levels. And if there is another 9/11, it won't because people like me failed to do their duty … And note Hearts & Minds don't work with islamists who already hate you because you are an infidel … If you think trying to appease islamists, in any way, if you noticed will not work. Because I want to defend my country and the West is why the islamists hate me/us ? Is that what you are saying ? Of course I agree with Lion's post … that is why they will always hate us no matter what my or many others like me, attitudes are … We hate radical islamists because they are evil and bring no good into the world. By trying to convince them the West is trying to be anything but powerful, will only make them see that as weakness … The average islamists cares little about the US's mea culpa … they already made up their minds … And so have we … Islamists must die in large numbers every day, IMO … Until some better idea comes along, it may be the only way for now …

Lion – nope, I'm pretty sure we don't torture people.

Don't judge us by the US low standards – I'd like to think we use techniques that actually work….

there is, of course, the possibility we handed people over to the Libyans or Syrians for such a purpose, and I hope the Parliamentary enquiry will see such people prosecuted if that is the case.

But whereas you're correct to some extent in describing the source of the motivation of jihhadis, time and time again such people note the double standards deployed, the support for Israel illegally occupying land and the fact that the laws the USA insists on applying to other nations are not those it follows itself.

A propaganda own goal, and the fight would be easier and more successful without it.

Legion – I've never mentioned appeasing Islamists have I?

I, unlike you, don't want to make their job easier, that's al. And handing these people propaganda victories one after another seems, to me, to be unhelpful.

I note, for example, the General was demoted, not jailed.

Your duty should NOT include breaking the law of the country you swore to defend. I assume you take that oath seriously?

Because you seem not to care one whit about breaches of the US Constitution, nor of offences against the UCMJ, both of which you swore to uphold.

These are not optional extras to be discarded when you find them inconvenient. Which is what the CIA has done.

And which you seem OK with.

Wow, this conversation has really derailed. The European Court of Human Rights says that France must pay compensation to Somali pirates. France, for the sake of argument, says no. What options does the ECHR have to enforce this law?
Will it get the other members of the E.U. to close their borders and place France under house arrest? Will the ECHR lobby the member nations to boycott France? Will the ECHR declare a "no fly" zone over France's air space?
I can't see any of this happening. The ECHR can make all the unenforceable laws it wants. Big deal!
Maybe, France should argue that since the Somalis are Muslims they should be tried under Sharia law. Anyone know the penalty for a ship's worth of theft?

stu …

the law of the country you swore to defend. I assume you take that oath seriously?

Dead serious … I gave the oath to reenlisting soldiers as well …
stu …

I'm wasting my time again with you … But again, sleep well …

What options does the ECHR have to enforce this law?
Will it get the other members of the E.U. to close their borders and place France under house arrest? Will the ECHR lobby the member nations to boycott France?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again…. ;-) The ECHR is **not an EU institution**…. It has nothing to do with the EU, at all, full stop. It answers to the Council of Europe, which existed before the EU, includes non-EU countries (actually it includes almost every country with even a toe-hold in Europe), and has no connection to the EU government / bureaucracy. It also has minimal enforcement powers – some countries, notably Russia (yes, you read that right, Russia is a signatory….) have rather large stacks of judgements against them, with minimal practical consequences – it's largely a matter of peer pressure and naming and shaming.

Lion – nope, I'm pretty sure we don't torture people.

While I pray you are correct, I'm willing to bet my VA disability "pension" that there have been cases of British agencies engaging in real torture (ie, worse than what the US has admitted to) that simply have been swept under the rug and/or not been discovered (and reported) yet.

The General Court of the European Union has just deemed that Hamas is not a terrorist organisation.

abc.net.au/news/2014-12-17/eu-court-says-hamas-should-be-removed-from-terror-list/5974592

These courts are just bureaucracies obsessed with mindless process.

You don't understand that things in reality are not black and white on today's battlefields … You find it easiers to blame the US for many things that happen as opposed to the people that are the root of such evils

This is so contradictory.

You say "things in reality are not black and white" then talk about "root of such evils."

Firstly wars have never been "black and white."

And definition of "good" and "evil" are subjective and depend on personal, cultural and social factors.

Yes, I understand, that wars are not black and white, I said that. And have mentioned many times previously of all the shades of grey in many things. And I understand evil and good are very much in the preceptions, preferences, predilections, etc. of the the individual factions, sects, sides, etc., etc. … I think we all can agree, what ISIS and AQ is doing along with the Taliban, BH, AS, etc. are evil, bad, etc. … However, that is not only because we may have more humanity it appears. But we don't think like they do … After all as long as they believe they are doing things in the name of "God" … But I could be wrong … again, many shades of grey. But where and how I grew up, again IMO, what ISIS, AQ, et al are doing it bad and evil … and I hope/think many could agree. Especially those who have suffered directly, yes ?

These courts are just bureaucracies obsessed with mindless process.

Yes … with little to show for the process, mindless of otherwise …

Nice one Billy-Ray! ; "Maybe, France should argue that since the Somalis are Muslims they should be tried under Sharia law. Anyone know the penalty for a ship's worth of theft? "
…I'd suggest it starts somewhere with the amputation of the right hand..but maybe with a nautical theme somehow.

Yes… I like the symmetry of that. France would likely be one of the very few places brazen enough to pull it off as an "up yours" to Brussels.

…. "up yours" to Brussels.

IT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH BRUSSELS!!!!

Ahem, 'scuse shouting, but I seem to be repeating this a lot. European Court of Human Rights = Nothing to with the EU and Brussels. At all. In any way.

But again, sleep well . . .

Ah, yes, the old standby: "You're able to sleep comfortably at night because of the dirt I'm willing to do on your behalf."

Or, to put it another way:

You can't handle the truth! . . . I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way.

Of course, that's just moments before Col. Jessup admits to ordering the death of a fellow Marine, and is arrested and charged with the same.

Where would you get such ideas !? Col. Jessop was not real. Nore was Robert Duval in Apocolypse Now ! No real competent leader would do such a thing. Or as I stated would any one follow an unlawful order to do so ! A substandard soldier or marine would be either tranferred to another assigment/MOS like clerk or cook. Or be put out of the military for not making the standards. Why would you go to such trouble to risk having someone murdered ? Because it makes a good movie. Not a reflection of reality. If you wanted to get an substandard soldier out of your unit, you do the paperwork … No where near as exciting as COL. Jessop though … Or to put another way …

You can't handle the truth!

The truth is paperwork for transfer is boring … not good movie material …

Sorry Dom ! I DID read your post ..honest !

Just laziness on my part there … and a personal reflex to want to stick it to Brussels.

So where is the ECHR located ? …the Hague ? Does it have a physical location ?

So where is the ECHR located ? …the Hague ? Does it have a physical location ?

Strasbourg, France.

What he said – it's in Strasbourg, and under the remit of the Council Of Europe (which truth be told isn't responsible for much else of any consequence.) The Council Of Europe includes basically every country that's even partially in Europe, including Russia and Turkey. From memory the only non-members are the Vatican (cos of the whole theocracy thing….), Belarus (human rights) and I think one other former Soviet country that I can't remember offhand….

So the Europeans created a "law enforcement" agency with absolutely no way to actually enforce those rulings?!?

What a waste of taxes.

o the Europeans created a "law enforcement" agency with absolutely no way to actually enforce those rulings?!?

Common bureaucratic tactic. They do it in Australia too – all that matters is that a process is followed. Outcomes are irrelevant.

I work in bureaucracy so see this all the time. Hell I'm a cog in a whole heap of mindless bureaucratic processes that add no value whatsoever.

Look at the UN … they may not be much better. For some time now, the UN isn't the organization it was first designed to be. The last time that actually occured was may be the Korean War ? They do however, do a lot of aid work in areas of conflicts, etc. … But nothing really much to stop the conflicts …

The UN worked pretty well over Kuwait as well, but the problem is the Security Council can be held hostage to the whims of the 5 permanent members.

So if a problem is being caused by an ally of the Big 5 then frankly it can do whatever the hell it wants.

Of course one nation uses its veto more than the others put together.

The UN is also much more than just an organisation for stopping conflicts, as the work of UNESO, WHO and the UNHCR show.

Yes, as I said, they do very well with aid, etc. …