1ngram | 04 Dec 2014 9:01 a.m. PST |
Reading about the Yuechi and the Kushans, Saka and Parthians and their heavy horse depicted holding a lance/kontos two handed. Sassanids, Late Romans, Sarmatians thereafter but by the time we reach the "Dark Ages" everybody(?) seems to have reverted to the one handed lance/spear? overarm/underarm? Is there a good source in print for the history of the use of the Kontos? |
tadamson | 04 Dec 2014 9:12 a.m. PST |
long light lances used two handed were widely used across Asia right up till the 19th c. Tom.. |
kallman | 04 Dec 2014 9:16 a.m. PST |
The lance would have come into being as stirrups were adopted for cavalry. Basically the stirrup allowed the rider to stay in the saddle and to be able to stand up. With the adoption of stirrups a rider could sit more forward of a horse's back. It is difficult to know when stirrups first came into use and who adopted the method first. Most likely stirrups and the used of a couched spear, i.e., lance, was an organic innovation that developed in multiple cultures around the same time. |
Herkybird | 04 Dec 2014 11:56 a.m. PST |
I think the Kontos stopped being used when Greek stopped being the Lingua Franca of the Ancient world. It was then called something else. As has been mentioned above, long cavalry spears were used on and off till the 20th century! |
Zippee | 04 Dec 2014 12:14 p.m. PST |
Stirrups do not enable couched lances – they enable downward slashing blows with a sword. You stand in stirrups, they don't stop you getting shoved out of your seat due to Newtonian physics! For that you need a high cantle saddle – that's the development that allows couched lances. |
Winston Smith | 04 Dec 2014 1:07 p.m. PST |
This is one of those threads that get their start due to wargaming jargon. |
MajorB | 04 Dec 2014 1:15 p.m. PST |
This is one of those threads that get their start due to wargaming jargon. Which particular bit of wargaming jargon are you referring to? |
1ngram | 04 Dec 2014 1:28 p.m. PST |
Lets narrow the discussion then By Kontos I mean a long weapon (usually 9-12 foot long) held in both hands. Not a single handed spear or lance held in one hand either overhead or couched. |
Crazyivanov | 04 Dec 2014 2:22 p.m. PST |
It seems that the Kontos went out of style in the west around when the Normans came on the scene, late 8th/early 9th century AD. Using the stirrup, spurs, and new saddle designs, they could more easily control a long spear and carry a large shield. |
Griefbringer | 04 Dec 2014 3:31 p.m. PST |
Crazyivanov: I presume that you are referring to Carolinian Franks rather than Normans? |
Sobieski | 04 Dec 2014 6:07 p.m. PST |
I believe it was the Romans who called it a kontos; to Greek-speakers it was a xyston. I refer here to Heath's terminology, but he knows more about it than I do, and I'm willing to believe him. |
Sobieski | 05 Dec 2014 3:06 a.m. PST |
That kitten is adorable, btw. |
1ngram | 05 Dec 2014 4:54 a.m. PST |
That's a great image from the Montvert Book. It shows some tremendous detail such as lamellar, spear/lance being wielded single handed and kontos with two hands (I think). Best of all it shows how long the siyahs were on composite bows of that period (1st to 3rd century AD) – no figure manufacturer to my knowledge gets this right. |
Crazyivanov | 05 Dec 2014 5:07 a.m. PST |
Darnit, did I get my centuries confused again? UGH! It does seem that Normans fighting against and for the Byzantines did cause a rearmament of Imperial arms, though how long it too the Saracen and the Turk to catch up I don't know. |
Khusrau | 05 Dec 2014 7:40 a.m. PST |
Wow.. never before seen such a confused bunch with all their info from wargames magazines and 'received wisdom' – the 'Kontos' (claims it meant 'barge-pole' – which would mean we had to understand what a Byzantine barge looks like) – long heavy lance was used from later Macedonian times – the method of employment varied.. stirrups, saddle (lashed to the horses head) etc. The core was the skill of the horseman. |
EvilBen | 05 Dec 2014 8:19 a.m. PST |
I have nothing to add on the use of these things, but if I might make a small note on the vocabulary: κοντός 'kontos' does usually seem to mean just 'pole' (as in bargepole, or punting pole, or possibly boat-hook in some contexts) in classical (and Homeric) Greek. I can't off the top of my head think of a place where it's clearly used to mean 'spear' by anyone writing before the 2nd century AD, although someone may be able to correct me on that. But in that sense it is a term of the Roman empire, even though it's a Greek word. In classical Latin 'contus' also often (entirely unsurprisingly) means 'pole'; use as 'spear' seems to get hold only in the later first century AD. ξυστόν 'xyston' (a 'shaved' something) does have a longer pedigree as a Greek word for cavalry 'lance' (or whatever): Xenophon seems to use it in this sense, as do later authors (although there's an issue of 'Atticising' by the time you get to the 2nd century AD again – e.g. Arrian may use it in this sense precisely because it was the word Xenophon would have used.) |
Yellow Admiral | 05 Dec 2014 2:59 p.m. PST |
κοντός 'kontos' does usually seem to mean just 'pole' (as in bargepole, or punting pole, or possibly boat-hook in some contexts) in classical (and Homeric) Greek. It was also used to mean "oar", which is how the "pentekonter" (50 oars) and "triakonter" (30 oars) got their names. - Ix |
Sobieski | 05 Dec 2014 6:43 p.m. PST |
That's an interesting point. Thank you. |
Crazyivanov | 06 Dec 2014 4:39 a.m. PST |
So perhaps a definition of terms is necessary. When I use Kontos I use it to mean a two handed spear, roughly 12 feet in length, with a large head, used as a cavalry weapon. Is this the typical definition used by other wargamers? |
EvilBen | 08 Dec 2014 7:47 a.m. PST |
It was also used to mean "oar", which is how the "pentekonter" (50 oars) and "triakonter" (30 oars) got their names. Drifting off the topic again, but I'm afraid that seems a little unlikely to me. triakonta and pentekonta are just the words for thirty and fifty; so a 'triakontoros naus' is (probably) a 'ship fitted with thirty of something', but the oars are not explicit. (Rather like a trieres is just a 'three' or 'three-er' or 'fitted with with three of something'). Also, if the 'kont-' bit of triakonter did mean 'oar', then wouldn't they be 'three-oar' somethings, not 'thirty-oar' somethings? The normal word for oar is 'kope'. I can't think of a place in classical Greek where kontos unambiguously means 'oar' as opposed to 'pole'. Although that doesn't mean there isn't one, of course. |