"15mm or 28mm gaming" Topic

Hello everyone,

I am getting back into the gaming world after a long hiatus, and trying to decide on whether to go 15 or 28mm. I used to play W40K back in the day (I'm talking about the original rulebook here…yeah, been a while) but lately have been seeing some really great 15mm stuff out there.

It seems that there are way more options for 28mm, but 15mm seems to be easier to build large squads and vehicle fleets (though it seems vehicle choices are greatly limited).

Also, if anyone could recommend a good sci fi rule set that would be great. I'm looking for something that is quick and easy to learn (have a few total newbies coming on board), and fairly quick to play (sort of a "W40K Lite").

And some recommendations for resources for minis and vehicles are always welcome.

Thanks!!

For 15mm, Tomorrow's War.

resources for minis and vehicles

Look no further than GZG!

Having done all this in 28mm I've now gone over to 15mm pretty much entirely.

In a shameless act of self publicity…

hammers-slammers.com

Rules supplements and links to loads of cool manufacturers etc

John Treadaway

Tomorrow's War is great.

Gruntz is another great rules set for 15mm scifi.

I find that 15mm is more satisfying in its depiction of ranges and area of play. I am allowed more tactical options than I have ever had on a crowded 28mm board.

-Eli

Actually at this point I think reasonably complete 15mm vehicle ranges outnumber 28mm vehicle ranges by a not insignificant margin…. I don't think you'll have any trouble

This site has a lot of good resources in the links:
dropshiphorizon.blogspot.com

Some Vehicle sources off the top of my head (sorry, don't have time for links):
Ground Zero Games
Brigade Models
Khurusan Miniatures
Rebel Minis
Armies Army
Ainsty Castings
Critical Mass Games
Clear Horizon Miniatures
Loud Ninja Games
Combat Wombat
Art Crime Productions

As for '40K lite', I think you'll want to look at something like Gruntz. That's a solid and easy to learn system.

-Will

The above is all sound advice. I would definitely second Dropship Horizon for its extensive resources.

15mm is the way to go if you want bigger forces as 28mm has become quite expensive and certainly does clutter the battlefield (there has been "scale creep" since the Rogue Trader days).

Other rulesets I would look at are Fireteam Andromeda and Victory Decision: Future Combat. Have a search round for rules reviews, though, as they all play differently and offer various pros and cons.

How many minis per side would you like to handle?

Infinity is my ruleset of choice for <20 minis per player action, and it will feel a lot like classic Rogue Trader to you, just expanded stats to use a d20 instead of d6.

The downside to Infinity is that it needs quite a bit of terrain to block line of sight. In Infinity, if you can see it, you can kill it.

Rulebook is free to download, though we're coming up on a new edition that has been heavily streamlined, basically making all the different mechanics (shooting, close combat, and hacking) largely use the same mechanics. The 3rd edition rulebook should be out in stores very soon (I remember hearing some people saying December 8th was the targeted street date).

If you want to run more than 20 figures per side, I'd suggest 15mm minis and playing Tomorrow's War. You can also download the Ground Zero Games rules (Stargrunt, Dirtside, Full Thrust) for free, but I really prefer the Ambush Alley rules like Tomorrows War over Stargrunt. They're a bit faster to play once you grok the rules.

Tomorrow's War is really infantry-centered, but does have rules for vehicles, from big powered armors like the Powerloader from Aliens up through monster tanks from the BOLO books.

If you like the Hammer's Slammers books, I strongly recommend John Treadaway's rules.

Wow – thanks guys! There is certainly a lot more to choose from than I thought. And I have to say, given the cost/storage differences between that and 28mm, I am really leaning towards 15.

Now, another question…what about 20mm? I know that is much more scarce, but any thoughts?

*chants 15! 15! 15! over and over again*

15 15 15mm for me too.

Yes Hoplite things have pretty well covered for you from the above posts. I agree that 15 mm has far more to offer in terms of Science Fiction at this time. One look at either GZG, Khurasan, or Rebel will demonstrate that for you. My rules of choice are currently Tomorrow's War but I have my eye on Gruntz as well. John's Hammer's Slammers is a fine rule set and a beautiful book to boot.

While 28 mm is catching up it is hard to beat the price and shear volume of things available to you in 15 mm. One thing wminsing left out of his list is the Old Glory/Blue Moon science fiction range of figures. They are more 18mm in size but it really does not matter and they have some wonderfully interesting racial types.

These Robot Legion figures are some of my favorites. Look under Blue Moon Aliens in their 15/18 range of figures.

15mm is where it's at for miniatures, no question. The sheer range of different tanks and afv's is jaw dropping.

Challenge is finding a rules set and even more importantly finding fellow players of that rules set. Hammers Slammers and Tomorrows War are excellent, but so are plenty of others. I like Hammers, but then I'm a sucker for large games.

15mm for scale

Tomorrow's War (AAG) or 5150:Star Army (THW) for rules.

15 all the way.

I think another important question you need to consider regarding rules is whether or not you want a point system.

I would go with 15mm because there is loads of good stuff out there for it. If you want relatively near future you can also adapt modern vehicles by sticking some sci-fi radomes or guns on them, and modern figures will work as near-future sci-fi too.

If you want rules that are easily learned, I would not recommend Tomorrow's War. I like and play these rules but think they have a steep learning curve. Instead I would recommend FUBAR ( link ) which fits on a single page or two and is really quick and easy to get into. Once you have your players playing happily, you might progress to Tomorrow's War, but I think newbies could be easily put off by starting with it ( depending on the particular newbies, obviously ) .

All of the above are excellent suggestions.

I you want lots of vehicles, and larger battles with troops, then 15mm/18mm is the way to go.

For skirmish battles, with just a vehicle or two, 25mm/28mm is a better option, in some cases.

My Topgun range of Grav Armor in 15mm scale is another option as well, if you want ultra-high tech vehicles. They are available in both smooth-hulled and AADS variants (the ones with the little circles all over the hull and turret surfaces).

See some of the pics below:

[URL=http://s43.photobucket.com/user/Top_Gun_Ace/media/15mm%20Grav%20Tanks%20and%20Armor/edit3_zpsec27c3fd.jpg.html]

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[URL=http://s43.photobucket.com/user/Top_Gun_Ace/media/15mm%20Grav%20Tanks%20and%20Armor/LightTankPlatoon1.jpg.html]

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I offer a very full range of Grav vehicles, including Light, Medium, and Heavy Tanks; APCs and IFVs; Mortar Vehicle and Ammo resupply vehicle; Point Defense Vehicle; Scout/Recon vehicle; and an Urban Assault Vehicle, amongst others.

I don't have a website currently, but can send you a PDF catalog with pics of all the options, if you want to take a look at that, or you can view many of them here, via this link:

link

E-mail:

topgungrav AT yahoo D0t com

if you are interested in that.

Our Heavy Grav Tank will work with 20mm troops, as shown below, should you decide to go that route, though, as mentioned above, 15mm has a lot more in the way of selection for Sci-Fi gaming, unless you want to convert, or scratchbuild your own vehicles from existing models:

[URL=http://s43.photobucket.com/user/Top_Gun_Ace/media/20mm%20Grav%20Tank/Image2-small.jpg.html]

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[URL=http://s43.photobucket.com/user/Top_Gun_Ace/media/20mm%20Grav%20Tank/Image3-small.jpg.html]

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Are you daft Man! 15mm is the only way to go for SF gaming. More armies, more vehicles, dare I say even more Character Figs….. Well maybe not the last one but a boy can hope.

Then there is broader scope of games available to 15mm than larger sizes of figures. And small scale combats comfortably fit on your average kitchen table.

Not to mention the scope of rules that works with 15mm, heck older editions of 40k work well without change. But why would we when we have fine rules sets like Gruntz and the like.

I used to play 28mm scifi in the1980-early 1990's….and ever since finding 15mm 3-4 years ago, I have never looked back nor been happier…I do like infinity, and pulp in 28mm but that's it.

My guess is that 15mm vehicles have outpaced 28mm vehicles.

Mbt's in 28mm on a table seem too over powered for the space available. 15mm is a little more believable.

I'm a fan boy of Armies army infantry….for that near future scifi look. No beefed up shoulder pad dudes.

Critical mass games has fab. Mecha workshop
Khurasan miniatures will hook you with one glance, so many choices
Brigade models has my fav. Armor
Ground zero games another great source for infantry and armor
Rebel miniatures pan galactic legion ! Love them mercs
Top gun llc
Ravenstar studios
Oldcrow
Art crime ( some of the best cast infantry I've had)
15mmuk/ ion age
The scene
Cp models
Clear horizon miniatures
Oddzial army
Who could forget combat wombat!

I can prob think of more and my apologies to those that I did…. I have bought from all of these companies…..they all pretty much size up in scale. Mixing and matching to ones hearts content.

I cant endorse the scale or the hobby enough.

While infinity the game isablast and the mins are stunning…every time I make a purchase in 15mm I know it's going to a guy who also loves the hobby, works his trade part time, and is asmallbusiness owner. They pretty much all post here…and they admire each other's work. I really like that part.

( 6mm is the same way). But I chose 15mm mainly from reading dropship horizon, and daydreaming khurasan minis web page.

My apologies for the random consciousness !

One thing wminsing left out of his list is the Old Glory/Blue Moon science fiction range of figures

In my defense it was all from memory, and that's one of the few ranges I don't currently own anything from! :)

I had nearly forgotten about the Top Gun Grav armor, REALLY nice stuff.

But yes, lots of good choices out there. And as someone pointed out, if skulls, spikes and giant shoulder pads are still your thing, plenty of scope for playing 40k in 15mm with a little work. I know I've seen a few Rouge Trader in 15mm projects floating around.

-Will

I think the reason 15mm is were it's at is the increasing size and price of 28mm. Nowadays it is more like 32 – 33mm.

15mm miniatures will get bigger in time aswell.

Since I like to paint and modify minis I prefer 28mm.

I grew up playing 28mm with 40K and the rest. Reluctantly, I let my friend talk me into trying FOW with him, and that is when I fell in love with 15mm scale. I kept thinking 'Man if these were only sci-fi models, they'd be perfect!' I eventually gave in to the pull of 15mm Sci-Fi. The draw of the battle-mech was just too powerful, and I haven't looked back.

I did have to learn not to paint infantry detail like you do in 28mm. 'Keep it simple' wins the day, but for tanks and mechs, it's wide open.

Thanks everyone for helping me make my decision – 15mm it is! I've already started amassing some of the cardstock terrain (I need something quick, easy, and able to be taken down and stored flat) as well as brushing the dust off my old Car Wars Matchbox/Hot Wheels conversions (and have done some new ones – if I'm getting back into, may as well enjoy Car Wars as well, right?). I like the ability to use a lot of the die cast cars and kit them out for quick and cheap vehicles. Of course, when I get all of my old 40K stuff out of storage, I think much of it is going to get turned into bits for smaller scale where appropriate…

You've made your decision, but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest 28mm for a couple of reasons.

1) You've already got 40k stuff and that's a great place to start.

2) 28mm is nearly as cheap as 15mm in many choices. Not only in terms of the incredible abundance of used products, but places like Denizen, Khurasan and others that have figures in the $1 USD range and many, many others that have figures in the $2 USD range.

3) The ubiquity of 28mm means that there's alot more folks doing sci-fi in 28mm.

4) 15mm lines are plenty and growing, but there's still FAR more variety in 28mm figures.

Of course here at TMP, you're going to get alot of suggestions going the other way since TMP is at the forefront of 15mm growth.

If you do go 15mm, at the very least, I'd recommend not chopping up your old 40k stuff. Having 2 scales of minis at your fingertips is no bad thing, and will greatly increase your number of available opponents.

As for rules, if you're looking 40k-lite, then I have a couple of suggestions, all of which are free.
-Shockforce/Warengine has a very 40k feel interms of the CC/Ranged balance and is very easy to play. Get it on the Warengine yahoo group.
-Warpath 1.0 (Company size battles) and 2.0 (Platoon Sized battles) plays like 40k, but with a fraction of the rules. Already has alot of 40k, style analogue army lists, so your 40k collection might drop right into the rules. Mantic has the 2.0 stuff on the webpage, and the 1.0 version is still available on Warseer.

The Warpath rules feel more like 40k than anything else out there, which is not surprising since they are written by ex-GW employees.

Any of these rules would work well in 15mm too. Rules like Gruntz, and Tomorrow's war are great rulesets, but they are not 40k-lite, they are very different rulesets with a different rules structure.

Lastly if you want to do 40k in 15mm, a great place to start is 15mmUK and their Ion Age products as well as the not-IG tanks by Proxie Models.

Best of luck whatever you decide, but don't get rid of your old 40k models yet!

I play both scales, I find the net cost is about the same as although 15mm is cheaper you need to buy more of it – 28mm is usually a few squads and vehicles, 15mm you typicaly have quite a few platoon sized units on the table.

I've not found a shortage of figures or vehicles to be a prolem, IME the most reasnably priced 28mm is Old Crow (or eBay ;) )

As to rules, I've played quite a few, I find 40K, FUBAR and Hammers Slammers get a good game done in an evening. I find the TW book impenetrable

Some great points have been made for both sides… Since I'm looking to do larger scale battles, I think I am going to try out the 15mm. However, since I do still have a good number of 28mm/40K, a few SW minis, some Heroclix & Heroscape, as well as some old Grenadier and misc sci fi minis in storage, I think I may use that scale for smaller games – more like special ops type of missions.

I think another important question you need to consider regarding rules is whether or not you want a point system.

Tomorrow's War does have a "beta" points system (on the forums). It's a bit rough around the edges, but it's perfectly adequate for scenario balancing (ie, are these forces within 10%/5%/1% of each other's points?)

Since I really like the AAG mechanics, I haven't bothered to look at any of the other games to see if they have points systems. Actually, I take that back a bit. Stargrunt doesn't have a points system, but Dirtside does. Since I bought SG2/DS2 long before AAG came around, though, that doesn't count.

Infinity is explicitly points-based, and the new edition seems to be addressing the most blatant issues of the points system. However, Infinity does NOT do vehicles except as scenario special rules. The big stompy robots in Infinity have a statline like an infantryman.

For a while, we had a pretty close breakdown of all the different costs in Infinity, though we abided by a request from CB to not publish it as a complete list. But there are so many units in Infinity that it shouldn't be hard to just run a 'counts-as' for everything. Say, that SW Stormtrooper counts as a Wu Ming (power armored infantryman).

If you want to put more than a platoon per side on the table, 15mm is definitely the way to go.

In fact, I wandered into 15mm about like Cyclopeus did: Through Flames of War. Flames let the company+ per side actually have room for maneuver on a 4x6 table (but bigger is always better), and it was still large enough to paint some decent details on. I'd played a bit of Epic, and while 6mm is a great size for vehicle-centered gaming, I couldn't paint the infantry to any level I was happy with. 15mm was that happy medium between reasonable size of battlefield and paintability of minis.