"Republican Roman Order of March when enemy is near" Topic

Assuming a two legion force, what would the order of march be?
Would it be this:

L1 Velites
L1 Hastati
L1 Princepe
L1 Triarii
Baggage
L2 Triarii
L2 Princepe
L2 Hastati
L2 Velites

Or something else?
Thanks in advance

AS the column wheeled left or right to form a battle line that looks right to me. I think it also changed according to circumstances where the baggage could be at the rear, but of course we don't have any eyewitnesses!

I think you're missing the Roman and Allied Cavalry, at front and rear. It's possible the velites or leves patrolled the flanks

This might prove useful.

link

And this:

A Roman Imperial Army on the March, as described by Josephus.

[Excerpted from Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War, bk 3, ch. IV, in the Works of Flavius Josephus comprising the Antiquites of the Jews; A History of the Jewish Wars and Life of Flavius Jsephus, wriutten by himself. William Whiston, tr. (Philadelphia, PA: David McKay, 1846)]

But as Vespasian had a great mind to fall upon Galilee, he marched out from Ptolemais, having put his army into that order wherein the Romans used to march He ordered those auxiliaries which were lightly armed, and the archers, to march first, that they might prevent any sudden insults from the enemy, and might search out the woods that looked suspiciously, and were capable of ambuscades. Next to these followed that part of the Romans who were most completely armed, both footmen and horsemen. Next to these followed ten out of every 100, carrying along with them their arms, and what was necessary to measure out a camp withal; and after them, such as were to make the road even and straight, and if it were any where rough and hard to be passed over, to plane it, and to cut down the woods that hindered their march, that the army might not be in distress, or tired with their march. Behind these he set such carriages of the army as belonged both to himself and to the other commanders, with a considerable number of their horse men for their security. After these he marched himself, having with him a select body of footmen and horsemen and pike men. After these came the peculiar cavalry of his own legion, for there were 120 horsemen that peculiarly belonged to every legion. Next to these came the mules that carried the engines for sieges, and the other warlike machines of that nature. After these came the commanders of the cohorts, and tribunes, having about them soldiers chosen out of the rest. Then came the ensigns encompassing the eagle, which is at the head of every Roman legion, the king and the strongest of all birds, which seems to them a signal of dominion, and an omen that they shall conquer all against whom they march; these sacred ensigns are followed by the trumpeters. Then came the main army in their squadrons and battalions with six men in depth, which were followed at last by a centurion, who, according to custom, observed the rest. As for the servants of every legion, they all followed the foot men, and led the baggage of the soldiers, which was borne by the mules and other beasts of burden. But behind all the legions came the whole multitude of the mercenaries; and those that brought up the rear came last of all, for the security of the whole army, being both footmen, and those in their armour also, with a great number of horsemen. And thus did Vespasian march with his army, and came to the bounds of Galilee, where he pitched his camp and restrained his soldiers, who were eager for war; he also showed his army to the enemy, in order to affright them, and to afford them a season for repentance, to see whether they would change their minds before it came to a battle, and at the same time he got things ready for besieging their strongholds. And indeed this sight of the general brought many to repent of their revolt, and put them all into a consternation; for those that were in Josephus's camp which was at the city called Garis, not far from Sepphoris, when they heard that the war was come near them, and that the Romans would certainly fight them hand to hand, dispersed themselves and fled, not only before they came to a battle, but before the enemy ever came in sight, while Josephus and a few others were left behind; and as he saw that he had not an army sufficient to engage the enemy, that the spirits of the Jews were sunk, and that the greater part would willingly come to terms, if they might be credited, he already despaired of the success of the whole war, and determined to get as far as he possibly could out of danger; so he took those that stayed along with him, and fled to Tiberias.

Imperial and Republican Roman armies were significantly different.

They usually place the extraordinarii at the head of the column. Next comes the right wing of the allies and behind them their pack animals. The first Roman legion marches next with its baggage behind it and it is followed by the second legion, which has behind it both its own pack animals and also the baggage of the allies who bring up the rear; for the left wing of the allies forms the extreme rear of the column on the march. The cavalry sometimes marches in the rear of the respective bodies to which it belongs and sometimes on the flanks of the pack train, keeping the animals together and affording them protection. When an attack is expected from the rear, the same order is maintained, but the allied extraordinarii, not any other portion of the allies, march in the rear instead of the van. Of the two legions and wings each takes the front or rear position on alternate days, so that by this change of order all may equally share the advantage of a fresh water supply and fresh foraging ground. They have also another kind of marching order at times of danger when they have open ground enough. For in this case the hastati, principes, and triarii form three parallel columns, the pack trains of the leading maniples being placed in front of all, those of the second maniples behind the leading maniples, those of the third behind the second and so on, with the baggage trains always interspersed between the bodies of troops. With this order of march when the column is threatened, they face now to the left now to the right, and getting clear of the baggage confront the enemy from whatever side he appears. So that very rapidly, and by one movement the infantry is placed in order of battle (except perhaps that the hastati may have to wheel round the others), and the crowd of baggage animals and their attendants are in their proper place in the battle, being covered by the line of troops.

From Polybios Book VI – link

The allied "wings", alae, are the legion-sized bodies of Italian allies, normamly one per citizen legion. The "extraordinarii" are the picked Italian allied cavalry and infantry.

In theory there were an equal amount of allies and Romans (by this time meaning Latin tribes absorbed by Rome as well as actual citizens of The City itself). But in reality the Allies tended to outnumber Romans, something like ratio of 3:2 even as early as the Battle of Sentinum (295 BC), 15 years before Pyrrhus invaded and way before Polybios. This seems to be the best guess of several recent scholars. Cornell (1995) states that Romans composed 27% of the population but supplied 40% of the milites at that battle. So this might throw off the ratios of marching order, but I'm sure they adjusted somehow.

Imperial and Republican Roman armies were significantly different.

Yes and no. It would be foolish to state that the Marian armies of Caesar were that much different than those which marched in Israel to besiege Jerusalem. Changes in armor take a lot longer than just the snap of an Emperor's fingers, and what with the state of the treasury then, (and at most other times) reusing and repurposing arms & equipment should be quite common.

Besides, even if an army's armor changes in appearance, the organization of the Imperial legions from that of the Marian ones wasn't that great, and I have no problem with using Josephus' account of how an army marches for ealier periods. You only change things when it either doesn't work, or some local situation requires you to act otherwise.

Sorry TKindred, but there are 200+ years between the OP's period of question and your description. The difference in structure and professionalism between Mid-Republican and Imperial troops, and their tactical operations are as different as chalk and cheese. GurKhan has the right of it

Jarrovan: Seriously? I have some serious reservations that the early 1st Century AD troops were that much different than those of 200 years previous. Were there changes in armor? perhaps. We wargamers tend to think of them as all wearing segmentata, but is that correct? Certainly hamata was worn throughout the Republican and the Imperial and Late Roman periods.

The only serious changes that occur are the Marian reforms and aside from the reorganization & legions becoming permanent affairs, it seems that only minor reformations of weapons and armor take place. How long did it take for the scutum to change shape? No one knows. It certainly wasn't changed overnight, nor likely was it fully implemented throughout the Roman army. I have a personal opinion that as the rectangular scutum became more widespread, the older models were not disposed of, but used to arm the auxiliaries. Same with earlier pattern helmets, armor, etc. If it was useable, it was used.

Likewise that changeover of armor. Was it one cohort at a time? Was it only for men in the 1st cohort? Was it only for the first few ranks? I can certainly see a legion with mixed armor, and the Marian/Caesarian style of soldier still in the ranks when Tacitus and Josephus were writing.

Regardless, here's an earlier Republican period account of how the Army marches. I assume that Polybius is acceptable to you in this matter?

Polybius writes,

The following is their manner of breaking up camp. Immediately upon the signal being given they take down the tents and every one packs up. No tent, however, may be either taken down or set up before those of the tribunes and consul. On the second signal they load the pack animals, and on the third the leaders of the column must advance and set the whole camp in movement. They usually place the extraordinarii at the head of the column. Next comes the right wing of the allies and behind them their pack animals. The first Roman legion marches next with its baggage behind it and it is followed by the second legion, which has behind it both its own pack animals and also the baggage of the allies who bring up the rear; for the left wing of the allies forms the extreme rear of the column on the march. The cavalry sometimes marches in the rear of the respective bodies to which it belongs and sometimes on the flanks of the pack train, keeping the animals together and affording them protection. When an attack is expected from the rear, the same order is maintained, but the allied extraordinarii, not any other portion of the allies, march in the rear instead of the van. Of the two legions and wings each takes the front or rear position on alternate days, so that by this change of order all may equally share the advantage of a fresh water supply and fresh foraging ground. They have also another kind of marching order at times of danger when they have open ground enough. For in this case the hastati, principes, and triarii form three parallel columns, the pack trains of the leading maniples being placed in front of all, those of the second maniples behind the leading maniples, those of the third behind the second and so on, with the baggage trains always interspersed between the bodies of troops. With this order of march when the column is threatened, they face now to the left now to the right, and getting clear of the baggage confront the enemy from whatever side he appears. So that very rapidly, and by one movement the infantry is placed in order of battle (except perhaps that the hastati may have to wheel round the others), and the crowd of baggage animals and their attendants are in their proper place in the battle, being covered by the line of troops.

You just repeated what GurKhan posted, I'd already read it, I presumed you hadn't bothered if you couldn't see the difference between a manipular legion/army and an Imperial legion/army.
You keep quoting Marian reforms, and yes I agree, they're very similar to Imperial times, however what do you think it was that Marius reformed? You seem to be saying that there is little difference between Marian forces and the earlier Manipular legions of the time of Pyrrhus and the Punic wars, if so I can't agree. Hamata was not worn by all throughout the Republic, nor were pila used by all. Light troops varied and changed throughout the period, as did the composition and status of allied troops.
Trying to say that the armies of the 2nd Punic War were no different to those after the Marian reforms is like trying to say that the infantry of 1815 were the same as those of 1944, because they both fought on foot with guns, had eschewed armour. If you can't see that, then I give up.

My reading of the Republican order of march when the enemy are near would go more like "What enemy? Lets just march past this misty lake with hills on the other side and not worry about the enemy!" :-)

Agreed John, but that's more of a scouting than a marching problem, which was always early Republican Rome's failing.

The only serious changes that occur are the Marian reforms

Actually I'd say that the biggest difference between the Republican period and the early Empire was the change in non-citizen troops: hence the extraordinarii and the Italian allied "wings" in the Polybian order of march, and the auxiliaries, archers, and "mercenaries" in Josephus' Flavian version. In addition the Imperial army has to find a place for its artillery, which is not a standard feature of Republican armies. Of course there is considerable continuity as well.