"Kickstarter: Alien vs Predator The Miniatures Game" Topic

"Alien vs Predator The Miniatures Game is the subject of an intellectual property dispute and is currently unavailable" – not really what I expected to hear… not a happy camper atm…

And given the time in the UK no news likely in the next few hours

Interesting. Where did you see this?

45thdiv: This is what you get when you go to the KS site:
link

Had the Kickstarter pledges been sent out yet?
(I'm not a pledger.)

Is this the Prodos game?

Yes, it's the Prodos game. There has been some noises about it in their forums.

What gives?

I thought Prodoss had paid through the nose for a license? I know they were advertising this game as being licensed!

Doesn't take much to launch IP issues claims in the Hollywood system, unfortunately.

Kinda glad I didn't back this one, now.

If it ever does get released, I can finish my old ALIENS boardgame upgrade to 28mm (25-30mm grid) with it.

I'm a backer and this is the email I received this morning:

This is a message from Kickstarter's Integrity team. We're writing to inform you that a project you backed, Alien vs Predator The Miniatures Game, is the subject of an intellectual property dispute.

The law requires that we remove the project from public view until the dispute is resolved (please see our Copyright Policy and Trademark Policy for more info). Because the project already ended successfully, your pledge hasn't been affected. The creator should still be able to move forward with the project (and send any unfulfilled rewards). If you have any questions, though, you can still message the creator from the project page.

The strange is that they write the following in the facebook account:

Hello everyone. Sorry to cause panic. We (Prodos Games) have made a clerical error when cleaning up our Kickstarter maintenance page. If you look at our projects you will see that there are two un-started projects. We were hoping to get them deleted (just to tidy up our work space), but didn't convey our request clearly. As such the AvP website has been temporarily closed in error. We are working to get it back up. Hopefully it will return in all its glory within 24 hours. Sorry to panic everyone. (Just goes to show a tidy workspace isn't always the best thing)!

It's a very odd misunderstanding on KS side…

I received the message that BrotherSevej did and a similar notice on FB

Hmmm, that explanations seems a little suspicious, but hopefully is correct, for all of the people that paid into this project's sake.

All sounds very suspicious to me.

Official truth from an unofficial source(message written by a Prodos rep):
link

Short version of the debacle as summarized by me: Prodos rep screwed up with project removals, KS may have crappy software settings that put up a wrong message, there is no actual IP dispute, the project continues as normal (tho apparently not as fast as some backers would like), all backers should receive messages clarifying the situation soon (if have not already). End of.

The reasons to not use Kickstarter keeps on piling up. Too much drama surrounding darn near any project.

Also brings to mind Harlan Ellison's rule about dealing with hollywood and their machinery.

Especially with regards to Fox and licensing issues.

Also brings to mind Harlan Ellison's rule about dealing with hollywood and their machinery.

As in, do NOT deal with Whollyweird, full stop?

The latest looks to be that the update that was supposed to come out last week is pending approval @ Fox. Other than that, no new official statements from Prodos AFAIK.

If there is no IP dispute, why was the Kickstarter page and all the Facebook photos not reinstated?

I have lost faith in Prodos and have requested a refund.

This was my first KS and I've also lost faith in Prodos but I think it's too late to get any cash back. But who knows maybe we'll have a Christmas miracle.

Christmas 2064, maybe

LiTS: It was mostly: DO NOT physically enter Cali (that way madness lies).
Go to the border. Meet them there and stay on your side.

They throw money, you throw script/screenplay.

Both go separate ways.

@Chromedog: sounds about right for a 'workable' relationship.

The promised update, allegedly (pledgers can verify):
link

Also explains, as far as these things seem to go, why Facebook got pruned.

Personally, I'm still doubting the page-removal-by-mistake story Prodos is sticking with, but I suppose it's immaterial if people are going to get their stuff in the end.

Okay so just for people's interest, this is everything we've received from them. This goes from the first, deliberately misleading comment, just another lie to add to the list, right through to when they admitted to throwing the baby out with the bathwater (or just throwing the toys out of the pram, because their backers are so hurt by their attitude and were too vocal in the comments).

"Hello everyone. Sorry to cause panic. We (Prodos Games) have made a clerical error when cleaning up our Kickstarter maintenance page. If you go to up you will see that there are two un-started projects. We were hoping to get them deleted (just to tidy up our work space), but didn't convey our request clearly. As such the AvP website has been temporarily closed in error. We are working to get it back up. Hopefully it will return in all its glory within 24 hours. Sorry to panic everyone. (Just goes to show a tidy workspace isn't always the best thing)!

Prodos Games Ltd
Prodos Games Ltd
Nov 27, 2014"

"As you may be aware we have removed the ‘Alien vs Predator Board Game' Kickstarter page.

We recognise that the closed site holding page says that there is an IP issue with this project. Unfortunately Kickstarter do not allow any other default page.

Please be assured though that the Game is still in development (we are in the latter stages of licensor approvals) and we will continue to keep you updated.

These updates will continue via the Kickstarter email list and via our website newsletter. You can also join our official forum at forum.prodosgames.com and follow us on Facebook (www.facebook.com/prodosgamesltd) or Twitter (@ProdosGames).

The pledge manager will remain open until shortly after the final products are shown, therefore allowing you to continue to adjust the products you have selected. You will receive due notice of closure of the Pledge Manager one week before it closes via the newsletter and your KS email.

Keep an eye on your email for updates.

If you have any queries or questions, please don't hesitate to contact Prodos Games customer services manager at agata.mazurek@prodos.co.uk.

Thank you again for your support

Prodos Games LTD

Prodos Games Ltd
Prodos Games Ltd
Dec 5, 2014"

"Hi guys,

We are sorry that we have been unable to deliver an update. We know you are waiting for one and we just wanted to make sure you know that it is coming.

At the moment, the update is with Fox and is pending approval.
We've been told by the Fox team in the UK that it is being looked at by the team in the USA and should be with us at some point next week.

We've said it before, but we want to say it again, we appreciate the patience you have had so far and unfortunately just have to ask for a week before this update will hopefully be ready.
Thanks again,
PRODOS Games LTD

Prodos Games Ltd
Prodos Games Ltd
Dec 8, 2014"

"Hello backers,

It's important for us to say that the Kickstarter page was initially removed by mistake, but now we have decided with Fox that it might be better to stay down until the product you have pre-ordered has shipped.

This is the same for our Facebook media and images that were uploaded there. From here on, we only want to share information about the final products you will be receiving, rather than work in progress imagery or text.

The project is almost finished, we are in the final stages of approval and therefore it will be ready to ship soon.

We are not able to give an approximate date for shipping at this stage, but as soon as the final elements of the project have been approved, we will calculate printing time, assembly time and shipping time and then share the final date with you.

Thank you for your continued patience,

PRODOS Games LTD

Prodos Games Ltd
Prodos Games Ltd
Jan 2, 2015"

"Happy New Year!

It's 2015, it's January and we are raring to go with the new year. We've got big plans as a company, so you can expect to see all of our product lines grow and see a host of exciting events we will be attending and running!

However, you're all here for AvP, so we wanted to update you with where we are.

Our final stage for approval is pending with a master document of all the materials that will come in the main boxed set combined. The printed book did not meet the requirements, so we are currently reworking the fiction and background in order to meet the requirements that have been stated.

With that in mind, we are starting to order in the large packing boxes, rolls of packing tape and part-time staff to get your orders packed up and shipped out. It is very soon indeed and, though we cannot express an exact date, we hope that you realise just how soon this should be.

Once again, many thanks for your patience.
Prodos Games LTD"

Patience is one thing. We've definitely given patience. But being lied to constantly is unacceptable. For anyone interested in Prodos and their products, make ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CERTAIN that you'll get what you're paying for. Don't reward these amateurs for their incredibly sloppy attitude. They'll promise out their asses all day long and deliver absolutely nothing for it, their word is dirt at this point in time. They're not hugely committed and inspired hobbyists who will wow you with their enthusiasm, they're already a faceless corporation who lie and treat their customers like garbage. Another GW in the making.

And for anyone unaware, before they hauled the site down, the most recent excuse for a delay was an amendment to the agreement we had on kickstarter. Basically, they told us they had a meeting, and decided that they had to sell 5000 units before they'd consider honoring their agreement with us. So, you fund them on kickstarter, they take that money and make the game, they fall 6 months out of their deadline to deliver, lie to us constantly as to why they're delayed, and THEN, they tell you it's because it's not enough money and they want more. The "exclusive" part of kickstarter was completely thrown away, there's almost no benefit to us pre-backing them. They've also hugely prioritized game shows and plugging their unfinished product to the masses, rather than just getting down to work and delivering it to us, the strongest feeling is that they just don't work very hard at it. Their previous kickstarter had people waiting almost 2 years after they backed, so this isn't new. Avoid them on kickstarter, and potentially beyond that too, that's the lesson here.

You do realize that approvals from the licensor can make or break a company, right?

One of the reasons the Robotech minis took two freaking years to deliver is that Harmony Gold kept demanding greater details, which drove the number of pieces for each model up. WAY up.

Licensed IPs are something that I wouldn't want to deal with as a business matter with a 100-foot pole and someone else pushing.

Their previous kickstarter had people waiting almost 2 years after they backed, so this isn't new. Avoid them on kickstarter,

So, um, WHY DIDN'T YOU?

With crazed, toxic messages like yours being posted up and down their KS page it's really a complete mystery why they shut it down ….

I hear you Lion in the Stars, but the situation mirrors exactly their work with Warzone, huge delays and lies to the backers. But I get you, it probably is really hard for them. I just ran out of sympathy, and to be honest, I started out giving them praise from end to end, I was a fanboy to all extents. It just go progressively harder to avoid the inconsistencies.

Helena, if you find what I've posted here toxic that's your own business, I was just trying to inform people of A. everything we backers have been given in information, I think people have a right to know, what you do with it is your own business. And B. my own experience and things to be aware of if you choose to buy from them. You can consider this an honest review, so don't tar me with the same brush as others, I waited a very long time before saying anything, I wasn't just irate on the KS every week for something to do.

As for not backing them initially, had I KNOWN things would be this unsatisfactory and disappointing, obviously I wouldn't have done so. I didn't back Warzone.

This is just information, if you have contrary information, or your experience is different, positive, feel free to share it, that's all I'm doing.

Delays are delays. We aren't even hardly into Defiance Games territory yet. Personally, licenced products tend to kill gaming companies sooner or later. And, looking at Mantic's Basilian Men at Arms and Traveller 5 it's better to go back and redo things at the cost of a delay than to ship an unfinished mess on time.

I suspect they offered stuff that wasn't approved on the Kick Starter page and that's the cause of the licence dispute. The dispute isn't over ownership. Fox very likely demanded that they take down the page so people wouldn't see the unapproved stuff.

So, give them a chance. Mutant Chronicles came eventually, and while it's still a bit shaky it's promising.

You make some good points David, I think it's just the effect of being lied to about what was actually happening that leaves a bad taste in the mouth, and casts things so much into doubt. It's hard to believe anything Prodos say at this stage. Mutant Chronicles did eventually come through the door, but to see that delay, and the same problems repeated on a second kickstarter, I think it's a bad sign.

You might be right though, maybe it's all Fox's fault, and Prodos are just struggling because it's a licensed product. I just hope we get our order this year. I get that I seem pessimistic about this and I don't want that to be the main focus here, it's just my opinion, what I wanted to do was show people what's been said to the kickstarter backers because I think people have a right to that information.

Y'know, I've been holding off on ordering more Mutant Chronicles for the store because they said AVP was right around the corner. So this is the kind of mistake and/or lie that hurts them more than anyone else.

Wonder when we'll get an update…

Between this and Winter War I am done with KS unless the creator has a successful track record.
I would rather have the money back so I can get toys I could have been using for a year or more.

The latest good rumor on this is that some backers have reputedly received their first wave shipment. Yay for them!

The latest bad rumor on this is that at least some backers have found their pledge managers to be open -- even after they have previously closed them. Be that as it may, it might be prudent to check its status.

Mercs KS is starting to get alil sketchy. But I'm waiting patiently…as opposed to some on their comments section. Biggest issue is they launched another KS when their second one isn't even delivered.

KS is fun….but at some point people just want their stuff.

Well I just got an email from Northstar saying they had gotten in AVP, sold them all and now been RESTOCKED.

Yet the majority of kickstarter backers many of who paid over £200.00 GBP 2 years ago have nothing.

I continue to wait to see if anything ever arrives…..

Mantic did this with MArs attacks, now Prodos….

I would say that I will give up on kickstarters, but i gave up already a year ago after the MAntic MArs Attack fiasco

Andy

How do you check to see if your pledge manager got reopened??

There's a link on a similar thread on Lead Adventure (48 or 49 page) when I checked mine it was open. Interesting you say a retailer has been restocked as Prodos said this wouldn't happen till backers had got their game. My pledge was all add-ons, god knows if I'll ever see any product,they just seem to be going round in circles with what needs aproval and what doesn't, meanwhile they seem to blame the big nasty FOX for giving the backers the shaft.

They said they wouldn't take any additional retailer orders. The restocks may well have been existing orders. More people have had shipping emails today. It's happening, slower than anyone would like, but it is happening.

But surely you have to order new stock in to get restocked? and therefore a new order?

I was treated this way by MAntic games over Mars Attacks, the product went out to retailers before backers.

AVP now the same.

I am amazed anyone bothers to give these people money on kickstarters when it is pretty much a gurantee that a year later you will get your product faster and cheaper if you pre order from a retailer!!!!!

Found my pledge manager, it had been reopened by someone (not me)

I have closed it again now

Does know anybody who got their ks game through the post? bought from retailers or picked up at their stand at convention doesn't count.

No one i know has managed to get anything out of Prodos.

Yeah, apart from a few suspect plants on Facebook talking about their product arriving (more likely just retailers pretending to be backers), no backer has gotten their game as of yet, from what I've seen. And Prodos have closed the Facebook as well now. They don't seem tough enough to be greedy liars and thieves. Maybe, just maybe, they should have put the backers first, and then they wouldn't have to run and hide all the time. I read somewhere that the problem NOW, is that they can't afford to post! If that's the case, it's ridiculous, we already paid them for postage.

I'll tell you what, here's my promise. I WILL back Prodos next time they do a kickstarter. For certain, absolutely guaranteed, I'm going to back them in the future, looking forward to it. HOWEVER, I'm only giving them $1. USD And I'm going to make absolutely 100% CERTAIN their new backers know what their conduct has been! Expect a regular update throughout the entire backing process, so new customers know what they're dealing with. They won't do this to people again, I'm not going to let them treat people this way in the future. I encourage you all to do the same, and spread the word to those you game with.

Their reputation is in the sewer, and it's their job to clean it up and provide people with a good service, and customer satisfaction. They have a long, long way to go. Who the hell will ever pay for their kickstarters again, knowing that they might as well just wait 2 years and buy for the same price, at the same exclusivity? Retailers getting the product before backers, Prodos are atrocious, it's disgusting behaviour, they need to be held accountable.

Someone told me about an interview somewhere online with them answering questions about the kickstarter, but I can't find it, does anyone have a link?

Hi, am still waiting for my pledge to arrive (boardgame & extras). I have been very unimpressed with the way Prodos have handled the whole situation.

True Celt, the interview was by Wee Gamers and can be found at:-

link

The interview is very good, and so far it seems like Wee Gamers are the only ones to attempt to take Prodos to task about the whole debacle.

Similar to yourself I am keeping an eye out for any further projects that Prodos are involved with, in order to warn any other potential backers about the how they treat their customers. I hope that any other company thinking of working with Prodos thinks very carefully before doing so, as their reputation may be tarnished by association with Prodos.

Despite all the above, I still look forward to getting the product I paid good money for

Thanks Dr Nick. Still seems like it was a soft interview, I like the comment that's there, sort of says it all. People don't get unhappy for no reason, especially with such an exciting and promising game.

I also am unimpressed. The general public now have the game, and they contributed nothing to backing these charlatans. I just feel like we've all been used and made fools of.