"Russian aircraft over Kursk" Topic

Hi everyone;
I'm having trouble finding a list of what aircraft the Russians would have used in the air combat over Kursk.
I'm guessing…La-5s and IL2 Sturmoviks. Probably Pe2s also.
We want to do a CY6 game and some tank busting by both sides.
Any help is appreciated.
Joe

Joe,

You are correct. Also throw in some Yak-9s and I think you could get away with some P-39s. For a change of pace I think the USSR had some B-25s by then but they were not used at Kursk.

Joe

Thanks Joe;
My local game group is doing a Kursk Mega battle using FoW rules but in 1/285 scale next February and I suggested a game of CY6 just before that game.
time to start ordering:-)
Joe

Yes to Yak 9, P-39 not so sure they tended to be further south, many of the Shturmovik units would have the 2 seat Il-2m3 version. As well as these new aircraft you would still find bomber units flying the DB-3 and Il-4, although these would be rare over the actual battlefield, and fighter units flying Yak-1/7 and LaGG-3.

Fatman

Joe,

That sounds great. Perhaps you could have it influence hte game after. If the bombers get through the germans get one platoon less stuff. If they don't the germans get one platoon of extra stuff.

Fatman,

Concur with all you said except with the P-39. I thought it spread out fairly quickly from the south which is why I think you could get away with it. What in your reading would suggest otherwise? Am always looking to learn.
Could you confirm when the B-25 came over? I had all this information why I was setting up the aircraft tables in Squadron Forward but that was years ago now.

Thanks

Joe

Cheers

Joe

Have seen a computer wargame that gives 67 GIAP P-39Ns and 221 BAD A-20s on the plus side it does list Kursk the Air Battle by Bergstrom in its list of sources and that is the best you can get for info on VVS units during that battle.
Doubt LaGG-3s would still be around your certainly safe with Yaks and La-5.
Some more info on P-39s link

Good stuff everyone;
I didn't think about the Sturmovik 2 seaters.
I haven't purchased any miniatures yet, will be looking in 1/300 scale.
I'd like it to have some effect on the main game..I'll run it past the group.
I plan on buying the Bergstrom book…looked it over at Amazon.
Joe

If your interested in markings and camouflage then look for books by Erik Pilawskii some of his work is still available on the web searchs like Il-2 camo will find it look for mig3 or vvs at the start of the url.

Black bull,

Nice link. I had all this stuff when I made my encounter tables but didn't save it. Concur with the LaGG-3 as most of those were shipped up north but not much was standardized in the Russian Air Force and there could still be several LaGG-3s found in LA-5 Sqs I suppose.

Joe

Joe Legan
You are of course correct about the P-39, 27 IAP definitely used it at Kursk and I am sure there are others. I blame old age. ;-P

I afraid I am away from my sources at the moment so can't say for certain when the B-25 first arrived in the USSR but they were in regimental service by the summer of 1942.

Black bull
The LaGG-3 was still around, in fact it remained in production until the end of 1943 and examples were operational until at least Autumn 1944. While I agree with Joe that it was most common in the North it was deployed on all fronts, the Japanese had at least one brought to them by a defector. As I said above I am away from my sources, trying to herd a two year old at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that some Soviet units flew them at Kursk. For instance four of the seven kills credited to Erich Hartmann on day one of the battle were LaGG-3, the others were Il-2.

I totally agree about Erik Pilawskii's books his "Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941-45" is a fantastic source.

Joep123
Have you looked at the excellent range of 1/600th aircraft from Tumbling Dice? They can be used with 1/285th ground vehicles and are much cheaper than the larger alternatives.

Fatman

There's a detailed article on german and soviet forces prior and during the battle, gives you numbers and models.
You'll have to google translate it though.

aviair.ru/yakimesser/id/406
It seems there were no LAGG, but two units had "Aircobras"

1-Guard fighter division had 3 units (30,67, 53) with them.

I stand corrected. Well after a day of Grandpa day care I slump in my chair corrected. OK next question which of the Soviet fighters do you think were mistaken as LaGG 3 by the Luftwaffe?

Joe Legan
After a quick look I still can't find a definitive date for the service entry of Soviet B-25. They were definitely operational in the summer of 42 and were still in service until 1952. Says a lot about the spares and service kits supplied with the lend lease aircraft. Barin can you help with this one?

Fatman

3 divisions had them flying from the summer of 1942.
However from 1942 their use was changed from tactical operation to long range bombing (they became a part of Long Range Operations command)
Interesting page here:
airpages.ru/uk/b25rus.shtml

and pics:

link

but unfortunately for most of you guys here in Russian,still with some linguistic skills and google translate you'll have a full account of B-25 and its modifications in Soviet service ;)

Everything you want to know, types, units, schemes, actions, losses:
Air War over Kursk, by Khazanov, from SAM Publications.

Soviet types: A-20B, B-25, Er-2, Il-2, Il-4, La-5,5F,5FN, Li-2, P-39, Pe-2, Pe-8, R-5, U-2, TB-3, Yak-1, Yak-7b, Yak-9D,T.

German types: Bf-109G, Bf-110E,F,G, Fi-156, FW-189A, FW-190A, FW-190F, Ju-52, Ju-87D, Ju-87G, Ju-88A,C,D, He-46C, He-111H, Hs-123A,B, Hs-126, Hs-129B.

Cheers.

Hi ForeverGame;
Thanks for the info and book recommendation.
Joe