John the OFM | 20 Nov 2014 9:39 a.m. PST |
I am doing the Gordons with Falcon figures, and the Camerons with Minifigs. Each TSATF unit (or 800 Fighting Englishmen…) will have a piper. I am asking because I once ran across a plate of the Black Watch where the caption said the pipers wore Royal Stewart. Heaven Forfend that I get this wrong!!! |
Toronto48 | 20 Nov 2014 10:08 a.m. PST |
The Gordon Pipers wore the Gordon tartan which would be the same as for the rest of the regiment. Attached is a link to the Scottish Tartans Authority listing kilts for all highland regiments BYDAND !! ( Steadfast) Regimental Motto link Pictures
Darghai Hgts 1897 iper Findlater wins the VC
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JimDuncanUK | 20 Nov 2014 10:10 a.m. PST |
Am not sure you would have many 'Fighting Englishmen' in either the Gordons or the Camerons, maybe just a few. Certainly Pipers will not always wear the same tartan as the rank and file of their regiment. If no answer pops up soon from a knowledgeable source I'll try and find out for you. |
JimDuncanUK | 20 Nov 2014 10:11 a.m. PST |
See, I told you so! Always amazed at the depth of knowledge on TMP! |
willthepiper | 20 Nov 2014 10:48 a.m. PST |
General rule is that Royal Stewart tartan is worn by the pipers of 'royal' regiments (Royal Highland Regiment (aka the Black Watch), Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders). In other regiments, the pipers wear the same tartan as the rank and file (government sett for Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, Gordon for the Gordon Highlanders, Mackenzie for the Seaforths). So per John's OP, the Black Watch pipers get Royal Stewart because they are in the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment (the Black Watch). |
John the OFM | 20 Nov 2014 10:53 a.m. PST |
I guess this has already been answered about the Gordons. I know it is a great mystery in Fraser's MacAuslan stories, but what did Piper Findlater play at Dargai? Was it YouTube link |
willthepiper | 20 Nov 2014 10:59 a.m. PST |
Also remember that uniforms changed somewhat over Queen Victoria's 60+ year reign. The Camerons only became the 'Queen's Own' in 1879, so before that date their pipers would have worn Cameron of Erracht, just like the rest of the regiment. And remember also that the drummers would wear the regimental tartan, it would only be pipers in Royal Stewart (if applicable). The Childers Reforms of 1881 were another spanner in the works, as the amalgamations resulted in several regiments needing to rationalize the uniforms between 'junior' and 'senior' regiments, such as selecting which tartan to use for the amalgamated regiment. |
willthepiper | 20 Nov 2014 11:02 a.m. PST |
I know it is a great mystery in Fraser's MacAuslan stories, but what did Piper findlater play at Dargai? Was it YouTube link Well, it certainly wasn't 'The Heights of Dargai' (which was composed to commemorate the occasion)! on Wikipedia, it is stated that he played 'the regimental march', so Cock o' the North is probably correct. |
Frederick | 20 Nov 2014 11:24 a.m. PST |
I would recommend a read of "The Whiskey and the Music" in "The General Danced at Dawn" by George MacDonald Fraser for a most entertaining view of which tune was played by Piper Findlater VC |
spontoon | 28 Nov 2014 8:05 p.m. PST |
Only the Black Watch pipers wore Royal Stuart tartan. Not sure what the pipers of the 72nd. Highlanders ( the ones in tartan trews of Royal Stewart)wore. The 79th. Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders pipers wore Cameron of Erracht, like the ranks. |
willthepiper | 28 Nov 2014 10:48 p.m. PST |
Thanks, Spontoon, I was in error about the pipers of the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders. I knew that in different depictions I'd seen both Cameron of Erracht as well as Royal Stewart and thought they gained the right to wear Royal Stewart when the regiment gained the "Queen's Own" designation. Turns out they didn't get that right until the reign of George VI (in 1936), so later than the period that John the OFM is considering (unless he's looking at an interwar deployment).
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willthepiper | 30 Nov 2014 9:13 a.m. PST |
I'm not certain if John the OFM is still checking this thread, but there is another distinction about pipers that's important: After about 1858, pipers will wear dark green tunics, rather than red. This only factors in when the drummers and infantry are in red – when the regiment is in khaki then the pipers will wear khaki as well. Also, if you have extra pipers to go around, there are several non-kilted regiments that took pipers to war with them, including the Scots Guards (3rd Foot Guards), the Royal Scots (1st), the King's Own Scottish Borderers (25th), the Cameronians (26th), among others. |
Winston Smith | 13 Dec 2014 10:45 p.m. PST |
Just checked in now, willthepiper, and I will make that change ! |
piper909 | 08 Nov 2016 4:01 p.m. PST |
Too late to matter, but just in case (cause I've been Searching for "piper" topics), 42nd/BW pipers in Royal Stuart, 92nd/Gordons in Gordon, 79th/Camerons in Cameron of Erracht until after WWII (Royal Stuart was authorized for them in 1943 but no one in the regiment changed their pipers' kilts until after 1945). Yes, the 79th/Camerons became a Royal regiment in the 1860s but they were very possessive about their unique tartan -- one of the only military tartans NOT based on the Black watch/Government pattern -- and only reluctantly went along with the switch to Royal Stuart (which then lasted until their amalgamation with the Seaforths in 1961). 72nd pipers in Prince Charles Edward Stuart kilts, others in trews of the same sett (very similar to Royal Stuart) until they merged with the 78th in 1881 to form the Seaforth Highlanders (78th and Seaforths in MacKenzie tartan). And Piper Findlater, of course, played whatever the RSM says he played! |
oldjarhead1 | 08 Nov 2016 6:46 p.m. PST |
Piper 90, I am sorry to disagree, but piper Findlater played whatever "Pipey" (Pipe Major) told him to play. Colin |
piper909 | 25 Nov 2016 11:32 a.m. PST |
heh! That was a joke reference to "The Whisky and the Music" short story by G. M. Fraser, cited in some of the above posts, as the denouement to the argument about what Findlater played at Dargai. |