"Building a Representative List of Firearms" Topic

Let's say you're working on a set of rules for role-playing or skirmish and you want a short but representative list of specific firearms. What's important to include? You want to make sure your rules work for all kinds of weapons, big and small, old and new. Here's my starter list, but I'm not much of an expert. Ideally the list would be smaller than this, so offering what you think is redundant is as valuable as adding your favorite.

Rifles
--------
Winchester '76
Martini Henry
Lee-Enfield Rifle
Springfield 1903
Karabiner 98k
M1 Garrand
Ruger 10/22
M16
AK-74

Shotguns
-------------
Winchester 1897
Remington 870

Handguns
--------------
Colt Peacemaker 1873
Mauser C96
Saturday Night Special (.22 automatic)
.38 Police Special
.357 Magnum
Browning M1911 .45 ACP
Glock 17

Submachine Guns
-------------------------
Thompson .45
MP40
PPSh-41
Uzi 9mm

Big Things
---------------
AA-12
RPG-7
M1919 .30
M-2 .50

Grenade

I don´t know… I´ve come to the point of believing all those who say "it´s the man, not the machine". The skill of the shooter is much more important than the characteristicts of the weapon in itself.

Therefore, I´m working with a very rought classification of my weaponry:

-Bolt Action Rifles
-Assault Rifles & Battle Rifles (at least semi-automatic, maybe you want to split them if you care about different damage potential of the calibres)
-Shotguns
-Pistols
-Submachine Guns
-Launchers (possible to split into singleshot-disposable, reuseable and automatic launcher systems)
-Machineguns (again, possible to split into LMGs, MMGs, HMGs)

Add to that different kind of scopes from Ironsights to high power sniper scopes and you have a sufficient range of customisation.

Otherwise I´d ask how you want to differentiate between the weaponry, what stats are important for you? And do they really matter compared to the variation in the users skill level?

Cheers
BG

I'd start with defining your basic stats and then producing a list of common firearms with those stats delineated. For example, your stats could include Type, Rate of Fire, Penetration, Damage, Range, Area of Effect, and Capacity. Your table would then start to look like such:

Name          Type     ROF     Pen     Dam     Rng     AOE     Cap
MP40          SMG       5       2      1d6     12"      1      32
.357Mag       Pistol    1       3      2d6     8"       1       6
Enfield Mk1   Rifle     1       3      2d6     36"      1      10
Steyr AUG     Rifle     3       2      1d8     30"      1      30
M203 GL       GL        1       5      2d10    24"      2"      1

The ROF, Penetration, range, etc., would all be specific to your game's ground scale and unit attributes, of course. You could also add an Accuracy stat for weapons that you feel were inherently more or less accurate than others, but I personally would prefer to have that be an attribute of the firing unit (with appropriate modifiers applied for scopes and sights).

For completeness I'd say your rifles should include the FN FAL. I don't have numbers to hand, but it's up there with the M16 and AK47 for cold war ubiquity. As BG points out, however, whether in game terms it's performance is any different to the Garand is another matter.

I honestly break weapons down into much broader classes:

Muzzle loaders
Single Shot breech loaders (Sharps, Trapdoor Springfield, Martini-Henry)
Magazine Rifles (this includes bolt actions and lever actions)
Semi-automatic Rifles (only a slight improvement over bolt actions; Garand, SVT-40, FG42, G3, FAL, etc)
Assault Rifles (M2 Carbine, StG44, AK, M16, FAMAS, L85…)

Magazine-fed automatic rifles (BAR, Bren, etc)
belt-fed squad automatic weapons (M249 Minimi, though they're comparable to magazine-fed automatic rifles)
belt-fed machine guns (M240, MG42, etc)

Pistols, SMGs and Shotguns (whether pump, semi-auto, or full auto) are comparable, and are more or less ineffective outside 25-50m.

The exact model is far less important than rate of fire…

"Saturday Night Special" is not a category of firearm. It's an anti-handgun political term meant to describe guns used by criminals and can mean anything.

Modern handguns are generally revolvers, semi-automatic and high capacity. Typical handguns for the last 100 years include the S&W Model 19 dates from 1899 and is still in production. M1911 dates from about 1911 and is still in production and the Glock 17 dates from 1982.

These are the military and police style handguns that would be popular in the USA and much of the Western world the last 100 years. Other handguns are similar in design, range and accuracy.

All three weapons have a range of about 50 yards with a skilled shooter. The revolver holds about 6 rounds and is the slowest to reload. The semi-auto holds a couple more rounds but is usually faster to reload. The high capacity will hold 12 to 20 rounds depending on the specific model. It can be reloaded as fast as the semi-auto.

Under most conditions these three classes of handgun are not that different. I am an expert in all three and the shooter is the greatest variable.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
SGT Says blog

I would probably want different rules for different eras. A winchester would be a gamechanging weapon in its era, not so much anymore. The weapon hasn't changed, but the world around it has, meaning its impact on the surrounding has as well.

Then I would consider what I wanted the rules to reflect. Is morale more important than damage, whats my view on fire and movement, what level of detail am I trying to replicate, how long is a turn etc. Think about the differences between the weapons other than rate of fire.

I probably wouldn't touch the weaponslist until I had those figured out. Otherwise my gamedesign would probably become a firearms simulator rather than a skirmish game.

9mm pistol, though only for completeness, because many nations use them, but they are very underpowered.

German G3 and FN rifles, since 7.62mm is better.

German M3 machine gun, again since many nations use it and the G3, or did.

Put me in the camp that says specific weapons don't matter. Rifles are single shot, lever/bolt action, semi-auto and full auto. Shotguns are single shot, double shot and pump action (although there were a few lever action shotguns made). Pistols are single action, double action and semi-auto. If you want, you can take into account barrel length and caliber for chance to hit/damage. Minute technical differences in weapons are mute when the lead starts flying; training and willingness to get the job done are much more important to the outcome than whether your guy is carrying an old Colt .38 police positive or a 9mm Glock just off the assembly line.

Actually, specific weapons do matter, since when hit by the projectiles of many, the target is only wounded, and can continue on while remaining a threat.

If hit by one with reasonable power, the target is out of action, or dead. That is a very real difference.

One could also make the case that a smaller SMG is much easier to wield in confined area. Running and gunning with a MG3 isn't necessarily better than wielding an MP5 in that situation. Even though RoF, calibre, damage, penetration etc talks for it. If however one were to start shooting through walls before entering rooms, the 7.62 will start showing of again. Different tools for different problems.

These things have a tendency not to show up in weaponslists though.

As above, it partly depends on context and level of detail. If I am hiding behind a standard brick wall, I care a great deal if someone is firing 5.56mm or 7.62mm at me. For some games/situations though this may not matter so much.

Broad categories (post 1900) might be:

revolver
pistol
SMG
shotgun
single shot rifle
bolt action rifle
semi automatic rifle (and possibly battle rifle)
automatic rifle
'assault rifle'
anti-material rifle
LMG (magazine fed or belt fed)
GMPG (bipod or SF mount)
MMG (tripod mounted belt fed water cooled)
HMG (generally one of the above but with AP capability)

plus various types of grenade launcher and mortar.

Assault rifle means something shooting an intermediate cartridge like 5.45, 5.56, or 7.62x39. (A 6.5mm Grendel is about as powerful as the 6.5mm Arisaka or Carcano, so that's right on the dividing line between intermediate and rifle-caliber.)

I'd class a FAL/G3 as either a semi-auto rifle or a magazine-fed automatic, depending on how it was being used.

@Mako: I didn't say caliber doesn't matter and, if you read my post, I specifically state that you can take caliber/damage into account if you want to.

As role playing is included as a potential use for the weapon list, the question is whether you are considering it for post-apocalyptic scenarios where non-military weaponry is available.

One such category would be concealed carry handguns – snub nosed revolvers or compact automatics. Due to their reduced barrel lengths their accuracy at range would suffer, compensated for by concealability. They are also usually on the lower end for capacity.

Then there are DMR/sniper/sporting rifles. Ranging from issue rifles equipped with scopes through the more specialized DMR or sniper models. Depending on the desired level of detail a simple bonus at range for having a scope could take care of this, with the caveat that at close range a scoped rifle without iron sights would have a negative bonus.

Finally there is another category of shotgun – the automatic. Mostly semi but with a few full automatic. Not as prevalent in the military arsenals, but a significant presence in the civilian market. Many of those in the US civilian market would be 'defense/combat' models with higher capacity magazines and reduced barrel length.

All probably too detailed for most tactical gaming, although for role playing they could add some 'grit.'

P.S. An added consideration in a post-apoc scenario could be the pistol caliber rifles and carbines. Shorter range, but ammo (and in some cases magazine) compatibility with the handgun could be a significant plus.

P.P.S. Per the original list, unless going for earlier availability, I'd go Model 94 rather than 76. Lots of 94s in the US and Canada.

Thanks, lots of great stuff there. Can't believe I left out the anti-materiel rifle.

I second what a fw others have said in terms of firearm categories.

Really don't need the '03 Springfield and the 98K as both are traditional 5-round bolt actions.

The M1911 was designed by Browning, but is really a Colt, while the Browning FN Hi Power (1935) was the first (or one of the first) high-capacity double-stack 9mms and used by both sides in WW2.

You did cover the auto shotguns with t he AA12 but not the semi-auto shotguns like the (weird) SPAS-12 and the Beretta 1301.

For iconic rifles, the FAL really should be included. I think that the Dragunov SVD should be as well, just because it looks really cool.

And you really should include a bullpup or two (perhaps the Steyr AUG and the FAMAS or the L85/SA80).

You also don't seem to have any SAWs represented--say the FN Minimi or the RPK.

As mentioned, the Saturday Night Special was BS--but I think it generally referred to a cheap revolver, not semi-auto.

And speaking of revolvers, you shuld include one of the more "modern" large caliber ones--like the S&W Model 29 in .44 Magnum and perhaps a European revolver like the Webley .455 or the Russian Nagant.

Rob

Try what one writer created for Savage Worlds: a huge list, certainly, but it starts with the cartridges.

A big list of cartridges.

PDF link

If I was doing it, it would be rather strange-looking, to be sure- I'd break them down by category, then sub-category, as in the Queensland Weapons Act. This will complicate matters, but the sub-categories are neccessary because of the government's habit of categorising sub-machineguns in the same category as rocket launchers.

Therefore, we get:
A, covering air rifles, rimfires, power heads, blank-firing firearms over 75cm, non-repeating shot-guns, and miniature powder-firing guns under 120cm long which are scale replicas of historical naval or field cannon;
B, which covers single-shot centrefire rifles, repeating centrefire rifles, black-powder long-arms, and break-action shot-gun/rifle combinations;
C, covering repeating or self-loading shot-guns (I know it specifies pump-action but I dare you to try explaining to the police that your shot-gun is an underlever!) under 5 rounds payload, self-loading rimfire rifles under 10 rounds payload;
D, which covers self-loading rimfire rifles over 10 rounds payload, repeating or self-loading shot-gunsover 5 rounds payload (with integral or detachable magazine), self-loading centrefire military rifles – and things that look like them!
H, containing blank-fire arms under 75cm long, black-powder pistols, air pistols, rimfire pistols, centrefire pistols up to .32, and centrefire pistols up to .45.
And R, which contains machine-guns, sub-machine guns, electrical or acoustic blasters, grenades, gas, rocket and grenade launchers, mortars, artillery (basically dumped everything in a big box marked "No. Just-no.")
So it could get rather complex.
Plus, of course, many different guns firing the same cartridge can be different. They have different weights, accuracy, reliability, and controllability; you can fire a Hi-point and a Kahr and they will be vastly different to shoot, even if both using the same 9mm cartridge. This is why Silver Gryphon Games' Savaged Wellstone City rule, the Hand Cannon Handicap, works by requiring the shooter to have a certain level of strength, measured by the damage of the weapon, rather than the size/mass of the weapon. And why that rule might be a bit clumsy.
Also consider the end-users' movement whilst carrying the thing.

Oh, and Saturday Night Special- a quality or condition, not a type. A class defined by the objects it contains, which are NOT in turn defined by their belonging to the class. I think. A slang term for an inexpensive handgun. There, that's a better one. No specific designs, calibres, or even type – doesn't even have to be a pistol, in certain senses of the expression (got a saw?) but means concealable weapons that are cheap, and often of low quality. The cheapness led to the term first appearing as somewhat racist (first written in public in relation to laws passed in 1968, which did little more than prevent people on a budget from owning a handgun, which often meant not-so-white people).

Probably best to go with a list of common cartridges and work outwards.

But:
British rifle no. 4
Marlin Golden 39A
Winchester 1873
Henry yellowboy
F88 Austeyr
Tavor
Walther G22

Benelli M4 tactical
Stoeger Condor Supreme

Browning GP35 Mk III Hi-power
1911A1
Walker Colt
Beretta 92FS
Hi-point C9
Model 29
Walther P22 target

Owen
MP5K
F1
Vector

LAWS
Carl Gustav

As a few have mentioned, you probably need to start with the premises of the game.

How detailed is the combat, how frequent is combat and what is the focus of the game.

If it's a game primarily about character interactions, political machinations and backstabbing like Vampire, then "handgun" and "rifle" is fine.

If it's a game like GURPS WW2 or Godlike,then you'll want more detail and specifics.

There's also the concern of overemphasizing differences that are really not that big.
For all that gun fans tend to obsess over this stuff, in a tactical sense, the differences often are minute. Most WW2 games barely distinguish between a Bren and an MG42, let alone two different handguns.