"China's Stealth Fighter Could Get Much Better" Topic

"We don't know much about the FC-31, China's other stealth fighter prototype. But a non-flying model of the FC-31 that appeared at the Zhuhai air show in southern China in early November offers some compelling new clues.

That's because the model is different than the flying FC-31 prototype—which also attended the Zhuhai show. Comparing the model and the plane could reveal Shenyang Aircraft Corporation's ambitions for its new stealth jet.

The model boasts better stealth features, new engines and a wider range of sensors. If Shenyang adds all these enhancements to the FC-31, the resulting fighter could more closely match the American F-35…"
Full article here
link

Amicalement
Armand

New engines is pretty much required.

WS10s are extremely slow-spooling, which makes rapid power changes almost impossible. US engines starting with the 1970s vintage F100 were capable of far more rapid power changes which increases the aircraft's agility. Chopping power going into the turn and rolling on the throttle coming out lets you make much tighter turns than at constant power.

They'll keep slapping RD93s into it until they worked out the engines.

As for power and maneouvrability, the problem is current air combat doctrine focuses on medium-long range missile shots and not short range maneouvring.

In essence we're kind of back to 1950s in this regard but with more modern weapons. In that case spooling etc makes no difference as the jet is essentially a missile lobber (primary role of F-22).

You can try to avoid missiles but very often that will stress the airframe to such point the aircraft that the aircraft is written off anyway (as happened to a number of Iranian F-4s in 1980-88).

HOWEVER and it's a big however:

1. Rules of Engagement might preclude medium-long range fire.

2. No-one really knows how the hell air combat works with 2 stealth equippped forces.

In essence you're back to World War I – both sides are to varying degrees "invisible" to aircraft radar. Depending on how stealthy the aircraft is, it's also invisible to more powerful ground based and AWACS based radars.

We've not yet seen prood that Electro-Optical and Infra Red systems are capable of long range detection of stealth jets despite some claims (maily by anti-F-35 crowd).

Hence detection is at short range and purely by luck or at best guesstimates ("we think the enemy has some CAPs here").

In this instance maneouvrability is king.

3. Also due to above problems with detection, Chinese J-20 has an ace in the hole. Provided it's stealthy enough, it's long range means greater loiter time and if it can focus on smashing AWACS and tankers out of the sky, then the US and allies are in trouble due to relative short range of mainstay fighters like F-16/-18/-35.

Also we still don't know if FC-31 will ever be a J-31 in PLAAF/PLANAF service. That it's released for export is amazing – the Chinese have not released J-10/-11/-16 for export at all.

The article itself specifies this:

the FC-31 is a strictly private venture. The Chinese military has not yet ordered the plane … and may never.

Indeed the only other modern Chinese fighter available for export is JF-17 and that is not in service with PLAAF/PLANAF, nor is there any intention to induct it into service (Pakistan has received 50 and a further 50 aircraft order is being built).

I suspect with stealth, and long-range missiles, engine spooling becomes less of a concern.

Radar/sensors range and effectiveness, as well as the missiles themselves, then become the key, assuming a level playing field.

AWACS/signals intelligence will still play a big part in setting the scene, as well.

In essence you're back to World War I – both sides are to varying degrees "invisible" to aircraft radar. Depending on how stealthy the aircraft is, it's also invisible to more powerful ground based and AWACS based radars.

That's not quite correct.

Modern aircraft stealth, particularly F22 and F35, is optimized for airborne air-search radars in the X-band. It is less effective against ground-based, lower-frequency radars. And those lower-frequency radars require antennas too large to mount in an aircraft, even a big cargo/commercial plane.

We've not yet seen prood that Electro-Optical and Infra Red systems are capable of long range detection of stealth jets despite some claims (maily by anti-F-35 crowd).

While it hasn't been (publicly) tested against the F22/F35, the F14's stabilized TV and IRST cameras had a clear-air range of about 50 miles. Given the improvements in thermal imagers and digital cameras, I suspect that we might be able to see twice as far today.

Modern aircraft stealth, particularly F22 and F35, is optimized for airborne air-search radars in the X-band. It is less effective against ground-based, lower-frequency radars. And those lower-frequency radars require antennas too large to mount in an aircraft, even a big cargo/commercial plane.

Does that mean that in essence we're back to Ground Control Intercepts?

hile it hasn't been (publicly) tested against the F22/F35, the F14's stabilized TV and IRST cameras had a clear-air range of about 50 miles. Given the improvements in thermal imagers and digital cameras, I suspect that we might be able to see twice as far today.

From memory, the stealth components of F-22 and F-35 do include measures to reduce IR signature.

Also IRST does not have IFF capabilities (Identify Friend of Foe) so visual ID is still required.

Both EO and IRST are also hampered by cloud cover.

One area where there might be greater ability to track at least Western aircraft is their electronic emmissions courtesy of increased networking between aircraft.

Russians don't do this and I'm not sure the Chinese do.

Does that mean that in essence we're back to Ground Control Intercepts?

Possibly. And since the Russians and Chinese never stopped doing GCI, I'd expect them to be pretty good at it.

So if the US gets into a shooting war, SEAD taking out those low-frequency "stealth-buster" radars is going to be a really high priority.

From memory, the stealth components of F-22 and F-35 do include measures to reduce IR signature.

They still have hellaciously hot exhaust. Have you seen the night-vision pictures of an F35B doing a vertical landing? Bird looks like it has a glowing pillar coming out the tail pipe.

Also IRST does not have IFF capabilities (Identify Friend of Foe) so visual ID is still required.

Pretty easy if you're detecting Su27s (no US bird looks like a Su27!) or even J31s. J31 is twin engined, F35 is single-engine. After all, your IRST should be a thermal imager these days. And for that matter, modern night vision uses near infra-red frequencies instead of pure light amplification.

Both EO and IRST are also hampered by cloud cover.

And some radars are hampered by rain storms.

Nothing is perfect, and having a multitude of sensors you can fuse together is always going to be better than a single sensor type.

Lion, in that case, USN investment in SEAD EA-18Gs is very prudent whilst continuing USAF reduction of SEAD assets (now looking at retiring portion of EC-130 airborne jammer fleet) looks very foolish.